So, I'm considering getting closer to this really great guy I know and taking things to the next level.... my only fear is he is Jahovah Witness. We have talked about it and he says it isn't his place to judge and that he believes the unrivhteous will be risen with the righteous so he could have peace being with me. I know he isn't as involved in the church as he would like to be, but I'm pretty sure if he was to get back into it he wouldn't be allowed to date me? He also is a literalist that the world is 6,000 years old and he couldn't understand what I found unbelievable about Noah's flood even though I have him at least ten examples of how it doesn't make logical sense to me. We can have totally civil conversations maybe from all his years knocking on doors he has developed extreme patience and no defensiveness when it comes to this subject which does help me. I don't know. Does anyone have experience dating a theist and how did it work?
Though I was a nominal Christian growing up in a household where nobody believed in the stuff I was never really indoctrinated. At 19 I thought it was ridiculous to carry a misleading label, also I had no desire to finance the churches I never used through my tax contribution. I the part of the world where I grew up the two dominant faith providers (namely Catholics and Lutherans) had a deal with the state which compelled the state to collect a churchtax. I was already paying additional taxes on my coffee, but at least I was drinking it.
When I met my charming wife, a semi-nominal Catholic practicing on the family occasions, she asked me wether we should marry in a church. I refused and we just signed a papers in a pompous wedding hall in townhall.
My second wife told me after having lived together for 25 years that she believed in god. The only answer I could utter was Holy Shit
Now to the fundamental issue of getting into cahoots with a religious critter.
I had a 2 year relationship with a born again Christian. For a psycho drama/thriller it would have been a fantastic script. It was not just her but the brain amputees she was hanging out with. The slimy shady old men who would come and visit her after dark. These people somehow know that it is bullshit. This woman was quite smart. In private she was a tiger with a ferocious appetite for good sex. But ultimate the sect seize her by the short and curly, me too at the lower end.
I had witness dramatic scenes between JWs and former JWs. Compared jihad is a picnic on a lovely Sabath afternoon in a fragrant ambience of a lovely park.
My elder daughter joined the numb nuts and we have no contact. They even convinced her that I was an abusive father because I deprived her of the delights of the scriptures. Luckily she's got a younger sister who would be my defence witness. JWs only lucky kind when they zoom around with their mobile churches filled with pamphlets.
Enjoy the sex with him while it lasts, but if he gets back into it Hallelujah & hosanna.
Once I helped one JW to start his cleaning business. He ran away when he discovered that the owner of the carpet he was cleaning was homosexual because of an erotic picture above the toilets. This JW just left a totally soaked carpet behind.
Sorry .. Too long.
I was married to a Christian for 27 years. She was culturally, but not academically if you get the point. So as long as we did not decorate in angels, she was free to go or not. They made her feel awkward at times, but that side of things worked because neither of us pushed...
I don't see it working for just what you already posted:
"I know he isn't as involved in the church as he would like to be, but I'm pretty sure if he was to get back into it he wouldn't be allowed to date me? He also is a literalist that the world is 6,000 years old and he couldn't understand what I found unbelievable about Noah's flood even though I have him at least ten examples of how it doesn't make logical sense to me."
He wants to be more involved in the church? Why isn't he? When he has the chance to be, he will be "not allowed to date you". That means you will be a memory and put on the back burner for what he REALLY wants. Then, he also isn't logical as you say. He literally believes the things in the bible. This isn't the sign of a mature mind to me. He might be fine in other aspects of his life and he might be patient and all that, but he will not budge on his religion and that makes it seem to me like you will always be second or third. His religion, him, and then you.
Whenever I find out someone "puts God first", I run. I will not be "sacrificed" for some imaginary sky God. I'm here in the flesh and require actual care. I'm not going to always be doubting a person's devotion to my best interests, or else it would not be healthy for me.
He also told you that even though you're a non-believer, that God will judge you, but he is quietly judging you just by saying that really.
You are obviously going to do what you want though lol
You should ultimately talk to him about this though. Ask him where his priorities would lie. Ask him if he wants to get back into the church and what would happen with your relationship if that happened.
Everyone thank you so much for the replies!!! It means a lot and I have so much to think but you have all convicted me to do it with me head not my heart! Thank you all and I am sorry for your experiences in the past. It's true I want to be there to help him because I see it as so sad but I am not sure he is open to that. So thank you. I am trying to spread truth to him.
My ex was a devout Muslim and it eventually ended pretty painfully for me! Take a calm and wise decision......
First, he's not a JW. If he was, he wouldn't have anything to do with you - a non-JW. Is he "baptized"? If not, there is more flexibility there, but not much...they still believe "bad association spoils useful habits" and they consider any non-JW to be "worldly" and they don't associate with them (even at work as much as they can avoid it.)
So this guy...is the kind of on the fence about the religion? How old is he?
I was a JW and know a lot about it because most of my family are still JW's so if you have questions, I'll be happy to answer them for you.
I will add...whatever you do, do not allow yourself to become indoctrinated into this cult. They have a way of brainwashing that I've never seen with any other religion or cult. If he's willing to LEAVE THE RELIGION for you, then hell yeah, he'll be a GREAT partner. Otherwise, I'd walk away if he wants you to "join the religion".
Thank you so much for your reply.
We dated back when I was fourteen and yes it ended because of his beliefs. Now yes he worldly in the sense of drinking alcohol and I don't think he is a virgin at all. He does have a lot of attractive qualities like his morals and things but he expresses fear of "second guessing what he believes so even when we do talk about it and I present evidence to the contrary his response tends to be "well we don't know what it would have been like then" or "well we don't have perfect bodies anymore" or "we will discover something that explains that in the future" he is definitely brainwashed. He believes he is in the last generation and Armageddon will come by the time he is 30-35. I asked what he would do if it didn't and he wouldn't even consider the question saying he knows it will happen. Which scares me because he will have a huge midlife crisis I bet. I don't know it's hard i see so much good in him. I am a single mom and he was raised by one aswell and I have never felt judgement from him in the whole ten years I have known him. Thank you
@Racphelle Okay, so I'm going to comment on each piece as I come upon it and I'll insert below each captioned area if you don't mind...it'll be easier that way for me.
"Now yes he worldly in the sense of drinking alcohol and I don't think he is a virgin at all."
You'd be surprised...many JW boys are virgins unless they've been molested by someone in the congregation when they were young. Yes, it's a thing. Regarding the alcohol, JW's DO drink alcohol...not all of them, but it's not something (at least when I was in the religion) that will get you into trouble unless you don't "drink in moderation". Many "elders" I knew drank beer during BBQ's that I could remember, and the ladies would sometimes drink mixed drinks. The thing with JW's, you can go from one "normal" family to one "very extreme" family in the JW cult. Our family was the later, but I knew many "normal" families who let their kids do extra curricular activities, go out with JW friends all the time, not have religion shoved down their gorges every night, for 3 hours at a time, etc., etc., I just wasn't lucky enough to be in one of those families. So, the fact that he drinks doesn't necessarily constitute "worldly".
If I were you, I would just ask him...."are you baptized a Jehovah's Witness?" If the answer is "No", then ask him "Do you plan to become baptized?" If not, then why not? If the answer is yes...run. Seriously...just don't hang around -- it will be a huge struggle.
He does have a lot of attractive qualities like his morals and things but he expresses fear of "second guessing what he believes so even when we do talk about it and I present evidence to the contrary his response tends to be "well we don't know what it would have been like then" or "well we don't have perfect bodies anymore" or "we will discover something that explains that in the future" he is definitely brainwashed.
This is a major problem with most of the young people (boys and girls) who are brainwashed from their youth. They are led to believe that if they stray, they will most certainly face "eternal death". They don't believe in hell in the traditional sense...to them it just stands for "the eternal resting place...aka, the dirt". So, they don't believe you're going to burn; instead, they believe that if they don't do correctly, they are NOT going to make it to the "Paradise" that is taught to them...the Paradise or the "righteous cleansed earth" as they call it...is a time after the great tribulation when all the "worldly people like you and me" are wiped from the earth. After the 1000 year reign (testing period for those who never knew JW...then the people who were super Straight A JW's will be resurrected to live eternally in this beautiful, polution free earth, together with all the other Straight A JW's who did everything right. :: rolls my eyes....in case you can't sense my sarcasm about these teachings ::
The problem is that once you're indoctrinated so hard as kids in the JW faith are, it's VERY difficult to leave. You feel like you're failing God. You feel like you're failing your family. You know that if you leave you are going to be shunned forever by all those you love (if you've been baptized as I was), and these things can weigh heavily upon you. So, many people just continue blindly following like the blind sheep that they are. They are not allowed to "question authority" or they are told to just get in line and just read/follow what the elders/NY brothers tell you is correct and you just believe it...because it's true. When, in essence, that couldn't be farther from the truth. Yet, they don't know this because they are reprimanded and potentially labeled an "apostate" if they do independent research, find out that teachings are incorrect and begin questioning things or speaking out in disagreement, or speaking negatively about the society/organization.
It's just one big fucked up mess that you do NOT want to become involved with.
Having said that, though, JW kids have the BEST MORALS (and I like to think so do those kids who used to be JW's but decided to leave later in life). We are respectful to others. We are kind, compassionate, we listen well, we love hard and we are always sincere with our feelings for others...at least those are some of the traits I've found in JW and x-JW kids.
So IF he's going to LEAVE the JW's...like, TOTALLY...NO STRADDLING THE FENCE like many of my siblings do...can't make up their minds if they want in or out. So, if he wants out, tell him to get out and start your new, long and happy life together; otherwise, go get JW. I've had to tell my siblings...you need to "shit or get off the pot." Either you go all in "worldly" or go all in "JW", but you're only faking it and being a hypocrite if you don't decide one way or another.
He believes he is in the last generation and Armageddon will come by the time he is 30-35. I asked what he would do if it didn't and he wouldn't even consider the question saying he knows it will happen.
This is not surprising to me at all. Guess what? EVERY GENERATION of the JW's dating back to the early 1900's has sworn that "this is the last generation!", "We're not going to make it to the next decade!", "We're not going to make it to the 21st century", "Any time now!", Bla bla fucking bla. They've been "wrongly" calling when the "end of times" is going to come for going on 2 centuries now. But this is another way they brainwash you....they make you believe that you must stay in line because the time is VERY CLOSE! The SKY IS FALLING TOMORROW! You don't want to be on the outside when that happens. The cult followers are very afraid of the end coming and being judged unworthy and not getting that "prize at the end of the road." It's just another way they brainwash their flock.
Which scares me because he will have a huge midlife crisis I bet.
Nah, I don't think so. If he leaves fully and doesn't look back as I did, he'll finally see the err of his ways once he's able to gain a new perspective...once he's able to do independent research and verify that all the bullshit he's been spoonfed all these years really is just that, bullshit. Once he realizes what I did all those years -- JW's are a cult interested in controlling their members thoughts and actions and taking their money and their time, nothing else. This is why JW's want their membership to get simple blue collar jobs such as window washer, carpenters, etc., etc., It's because a) they want their free labor on new Kingdom Hall constructions and b) they don't want them to get educated and realize the religion is bullshit and c) they want to use these people as door-knockers to gain new members (aka, more free labor and more money for the NY organization that's living high on the hog.)
I don't know it's hard I see so much good in him. I am a single mom and he was raised by one aswell and I have never felt judgement from him in the whole ten years I have known him.
My recommendation to you would just to be have a heart to heart with him. Let him know how you feel about him and let him know that you would really like to be with him and make a life with him, but you will NOT turn JW and you aren't interested in being with him AND the JW cult. If he's to be with you, he needs to decide you over the JW's and you guys get together and live happily ever after. If he can't lose his grip on the bullshit cult and their teachings, he'll never be "with you" in the sense I know you want to be with him in.
Sorry this was so long and drawn out...I just have a lot to say about this topic and I want to help you guys as much as I can. I feel sorry for him because I was him once upon a time, and I know the struggles that he has going on inside of him right now. He's in a very tough spot. He just has to be brave enough to make the right choice and drop that cult. Once he's done it, after some time passes and after he's done some investigation of his own (something the JW's frown upon), he'll see I'm right and the cult is deadly.
@Clauddvon thank you so much for taking the time to dissect my thoughts and fears for Me! I will take your advice and be honest and upfront when he comes to visit. I love his morals and who he Is, it is beliefs that I know are dangerous. Thank you again! I'm so sorry for what you went through but am so so glad you were so brave!
I've read quite a few posts on Reddit written by atheists who are at their wits end being married to theists.
You can't change people. That's the bottom line.
I was raised a JW. If he’s “not that involved” maybe there is a way to help him be totally uninvolved. Chances are he’s just a JW because he was born into it. JWs completely shun anyone who leaves the faith... and they cultishly discourage association with “worldlings” the only acceptable reason for engaging with nonbelievers is to spread the “truth”. If he does try to “get more involved” with his belief he will be pressured to proselytize to you and get you to come to the Kingdom Hall and go to bible study. There will be pressure of one form or another.., I mean, come on, what are JWs known for? Right? They are some of the hardest Jesus pushers on the block. They don’t believe in hell, that’s one thing they have going for them. But the “oh, we aren’t judgemental” thing is a crock of poo poo. They are just as sanctimonious as all the others. They’re just more passive aggressive about it. I’ve met a lot of great Christians of all kinds of denominations... they are fine at arms length, but for myself.., I think it’s asking for trouble to get attached without this being resolved first. If his congregation gets wind that he is dating a “worldling” he is going to be pressured to bring you into the “flock” or to take his leave. To me it sounds like he wants to leave, but his brain hasn’t caught up with his heart yet. That bible literalism junk has got to go. Denying science is an extreme indicator of willful delusion and ignorance... if this guy is half way smart, he probably already is feeling some doubt because of the stupidity he’s forced to accept as the “truth”. I would work on that doubt. JWs unequivocally disapprove of sex before marriage. I would work on getting him out if you really like this guy... the faith ain’t doing anyone any favors. At least JWs don’t vote, and keep their nonsense away from politics.
That is extremely important for me to remember it's not all about the "how he is now" but also how he could become.... more involved in the church. Thank you for the truth!
The Jehovahs Witness is a particularly nasty cult. That level of denial of reality has little chance of change and you will eventually be expected to come to the JW way of thinking.
John Cedars is a recovering JW and his channel is fun
All you need to know
i've seen first hand the destruction this cult brings to people that try to leave including women having their children turned against them. They are similar in their agenda as scientologists.
But if you like him then see how it goes forewarned with the above info
John Cedars is amazing! He's so good that the Watchtower and Tract Society (their official organization in NY) has gone after him multiple times requesting him to cease and desist but he doesn't have too. I love watching his videos. As an x-JW myself I can affirm that he is ON POINT with everything he says in his videos.
I wouldn't go there. I can have a friendship and agree to disagree on certain topics, but my partner and I need to be fairly well aligned in our thinking. His literal belief in these unprovable things is disturbing. Maybe you can make him see the (real) light.
Being his friend and sticking to your reasoning and critical thinking is a good way to help him. Part of the problem with leaving the faith is that you lose connection with friends and family you have built up over the years of your life. I was lucky, I was always strange even for someone in a strange religion, and never made tight bonded friendships with anyone (I did have a few casual friendships). Probably as a result of being a JW, I was also kept distant from my extended family who were catholic... so that wasn’t a factor one way or another. The more close relationships your friend has in the faith, the more he has to lose by leaving it. The more friendships he has outside the faith, particularly intelligent critical thinkers, the better his chances are of freeing his mind. For me, it was not a sudden “realization” that everything was BS. It eroded away over time. Even when I left, I felt like... it was just that some of the doctrine was wrong... it’s hard to remember exactly which things went when. The main impetus was to escape the feeling of being “stifled”, and not finding anyone in the faith I could deeply connect with on a personality level. Looking back on it now, while I do remember a lot of warmth and generosity in spirit, there was something very shallow about those friendships. It’s funny, it is probably my experience as a JW that is subconsciously abetting my efforts in forming strategies to influence the beliefs of your friend! Ha ha ha ... the serpent eats its tail! To this end, I would fish for the parts of his faith he questions or finds fault with. If his faith is so great and true, why isn’t he participating more? He will possibly blame himself in some way, but try to get him to go deeper than that.... it’s not just questioning that weakens faith... it’s those connections to people outside the faith... Emotion plays a huge role, when those connections outside the faith are stronger than those within... the faith will start to lose its grip.