If a woman wants an abortion should the father have a right to keep the child?
In the U.S. a woman has a right to an abortion. As far as I know, if she has the child and files a paternity suit, the father has to pay support for the child, whether he wanted it or not. Other than by adoption, a man can't have HIS OWN child without a woman bearing that child. A woman can't have HER OWN child without a man. Outside of some guy duping some woman into sex, both parties know the possible outcome. Since a man can't get his own child any other way, shouldn't he have a right to HIS child? He certainly has to pay for it if he doesn't want it and the woman does. Yeah, yeah, I can hear the "it's the woman's body..she has to bear the child" etc. stuff, but she knew what she was getting into when she had the sex.
For those of you who took the time to consider the man's point of view I thank you, regardless
of your vote.
For those of you who decided to make personal attacks because I dared to ask the question, you know what you can do--also re-read the civility pledge you made when you joined the site.
For all of you, please remember freedom of speech. Without it and your precious law that says you have a right to abortion, you wouldn't have it. Try and let everyone have an opinion, but at a minimum let them asks questions whether you like them or not. Thanks for confirming my opinion of humanity
3
Enjoy being online again!
Welcome to the community of good people who base their values on evidence and appreciate civil discourse - the social network you will enjoy.Create your free account
43 comments
Feel free to reply to any comment by clicking the "Reply" button.Even when pregnancy is specifically not wanted, most methods of contraception (except, of course, celibacy) fail some percentage of the time -- either because of errors of usage, failure of the method, or other circumstances (for example, some antibiotics can cause oral contraception to fail). If a pregnancy does occur, at present there is no alternative method to getting the child into the world for the father to keep than a potentially life-threatening approximately 40 weeks of carrying what will eventually become a child. During that time a lot can happen to the woman and to the child. So it's not simply a matter of handing over the baby and allowing the father to raise it.
I suppose if the couple (with an attorney, I would hope) can calculate whatever wear and tear occurs to her body, plus all medical expenses required for a healthy pregnancy and baby, plus all the other expenses (clothes, etc.). Then (theoretically) if the father compensates the mother for all the expenses, it might approach parity. However, I'm not sure there's any way to deal with the almost inevitable feelings of connection that the mother develops during the pregnancy.
Even though in theory a mother can choose to keep a child and to require the father to pay child support until the child is 18 years old, that's not necessarily always the outcome. My pregnancy occurred in the context of a fairly casual fling. I had been told I could not conceive so it was a shock to us both -- a pleasant one for me and an unpleasant one for him. Since I was delighted to have the baby, I offered to keep him out of it entirely if he wished. He did, so he did not appear on the birth certificate and never had any contact with her until she decided to contact him ater she was 21. I never took a cent and never spoke to him again after he made his choice.
ladyprof70
Level 7
May 20, 2018
4
My mom is fond of telling how some family friends had 3 children. Each child defeated some form of birth control the parents were using!
Celibacy has a pretty high failure rate, in actual fact. Not many folks actually stick to it.
I kind of hate this question, but I really dislike the argument that people know what they are in for. Birth control interacts with other medications, condoms break, etc. And people make poor choices in the heat of the moment. Also, some men are assholes and remove the condom without consent.
The man may end up financially responsible, but does not take on the health burden and risk. Also, many women will never sue for child support. So the burden is much lower for the man.
If a woman does carry the child to term, she can sue for support, but the father can also sue for parental rights. That is the fair comparison. The man should not be able to force the woman to be an incubator for a potential child.
Drewesque
Level 6
May 20, 2018
14
spot on!
I don’t feel that a man should have the right to prevent a woman from having an abortion. The way I see it, if a man chose to have unprotected sex with me, knowing that I’m not on birth control, then his decision has already been made. He chose to give me his sperm, but it’s my choice on what I can and will do with it. Plus, as many others have stated, why can’t the man just find someone who does want to have his child instead of forcing someone to have his child??
H3ath3r
Level 4
May 20, 2018
12
“She knew what she was getting into when she had... dun dun DUNNN... THE SECKS!” ? is now my new favorite MRA motto. Watch out ladies this ones liable to crinkle a lifesavers wrapper in the dark on ya, he wants the Rhythm Method to play at the wedding. Think child support is unfair? Take control of your own birth control options or only have sex with women you trust and know to be taking responsibility for theirs. I see what you’re saying in a primitive minded way about the turnabout, but no that doesn’t mean you’re entitled to use anyone as your baby factory just because they have the option to have a child or not and you don’t. Tough luck it’s literally the only thing men don’t mostly control in this world, how horrible for us. How often do you think a woman winds up aborting a child that the man would have happily taken care of by himself? I’m pretty sure that’s never happened, anywhere ever.
Wurlitzer
Level 8
May 20, 2018
10
Well said!
???
This is a nonsensical argument. The woman is forced to literally bear the burden of the pregnancy. Pregnancy and childbirth are dangerous and cone with a whole host of possible risks, mental and emotional. Not even corpses can be forced to give up their bodily autonomy. Are you truly suggesting women have less say over whats done with their bodies than a dead person?
OpposingOpposum
Level 9
May 21, 2018
5
@sarahjustme it is US law. A dead body can't be forced to give up its bodily autonomy(give
Organs without consent) even to save the life or lives of others. No one can legally be required to put themselves at risk, even when it would save a life.Therefore if you demand that a woman take the risk of giving up her life to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term, you're putting women in a legal class with less rights than any other class, even dead people.
Really, really can't wait until this mindset dies off. It's well beyond time to lay these old ass, tired ass disproven 5000 times ass theories to rest. If I had to listen to this everyday I'd cut my own throat just to escape.
I could live to be 1000 years old and I will never understand what makes any man think he has any right to have an opinion about whether or not any woman can have an abortion if she wants/needs one.
When men grow ovaries and uteri, they can make the decision for themselves.
Until then, they don't get a say.
KKGator
Level 9
May 20, 2018
8
@Akfishlady It'll always get one out of me.
Gee ok, since you refuse to consider a man might want the child he fathered and, although I know your answer here because you will want to remain consistent, what if it was reversed and the man bore the child and was going to abort YOUR baby? That you'd have to pay for once it's born whether you want it or not?
@lerlo What kind of fantasy is this? Let me tell you how I lived my reproductive life. When I was young and foolish, I was at least smart enough to know I was in no position to care for a child. I used birth control pills. I was a woman in the Army in the late 70s and early 80s, those were crazy times. Yes, I was sexually active. Then I was married for many years and had babies when the time was right. I now have three adult daughters. I brought them all up understanding their bodies. When we thought there was a chance they would be sexually active we made sure they were protected with a good form of birth control. There were NO pregnancies when they were not planned and welcomed. I have two married children who have given me two grandchildren. If YOU want to father a child find a woman who is willing to have your child, but have that discussion before you move forward in the relationship. If you don't want to father a child make sure you are not spilling fertile seed. Not every woman has my ethics.
In my opinion, the "conclusion" is not the important thing here. The arguments used are all important. And most of them are invalid (from a logical point of view.)
@lerlo IF men were the ones capable of gestating pregnancies and bearing offspring, the situation would still be the same. No woman would have the right to force them to gestate a pregnancy if they didn't want to.
If it's not your body, it's not your life, it's not your decision, and it's not your business.
Why should any other person have any right over someone else's bodily autonomy?
As far as paying for a child whether you want it or not, you should absolutely have the right to give up your parental rights and be done with it. That the legal system can force men to pay for offspring they don't want is completely wrong and should stop. The same goes for women who do not have custody of born children and want to give up their parental rights.
Of course I refuse to consider whether a man might want the child he fathered. It's not his body that has to gestate it. Women are not broodmares or gestational slaves. They should never be forced to gestate any pregnancy they don't want, regardless of what their reason(s) may be.
@HippieChick58 So when you had the children were they just yours?
@lerlo You are extrapolating the issue.
However, I will answer your question. IF the father and I have mutually decided to parent together, then that would be what we would do. If he didn't want to be part of the equation, I wouldn't force him to. That also means I wouldn't force him to pay child support. That would make the child "just mine" at that point.
Any other questions?
@lerlo The children were brought into the world with the understanding we both wanted to be parents. We decided together the time was right to have a child. For our second and third living children I knew my rhythms so well I actually asked my ex after we went to bed "do you wanna make a baby?" and we made a baby that night. Because of travel/vacation schedules that was the only time it could have happened. So we were both committed to having another child. Were the children just mine, no. My ex was and still is a committed father. However, had we not been married and not been committed to having children and being a family I would never have had children with him. I controlled my fertility, it did not control me. I never had a pregnancy that was not wanted, and I only had one that truly was not planned.
@COGITOERGOSUM Do tell. What does "logic" have to do with having dominion over one's own body?
@KKGator Well yes we can go on and on if you think that deciding whether or not to support that child means that you are not its parent and that it's not your child if you say you won't support it. So if the father chooses not to support it is he still the father? Yes it seems an absurd question but absurd arguments call for absurd questions sometimes. To put it in perspective for you, if you build a house and your name is on the deed and you walk away form the house is it still yours? (think birth certificate here)
@KKGator only the people with the "right" answer get to drag this out huh? When you personally attack me for asking a question you get what you get. I notice you couldnt answer my question about is the kid yours after you have it--why is that? can't open your mind enough to answer it or you know the answer puts you in corner
@lerlo Okay, first of all, I have NOT "personally attacked" you. At all. Not once. Saying I have is a straight-up LIE.
Further, I DID answer your question. My mind is sufficiently open to have answered every question you posed. Under no circumstances would any answer I might give put me in a corner. For someone who claims they are an attorney, you really aren't that great at arguing. That is not a "personal attack", that is simply an observation. I have more than adequately supported my position. You seem to be the one who is having a problem with my responses. We've done this before, and you behaved in the exact same manner, and still did not win the argument.
There are still 7 states in the US that have no laws against a rapist filing and being granted custody and visitation rights for a child he created by raping an innocent woman who certainly did not have a say about what she was getting into.
AdorkableMe
Level 7
May 20, 2018
9
That's appalling.
And said rapist can not be sued for child support.
This issue will change entirely when artificial wombs become commonplace.
bingst
Level 8
May 20, 2018
9
That just makes me think of Brave New World, and it's a little saddening. There is no real existence for the inhabitants of the World State, or for the outer groups.
@DZhukovin My comment on a post concerning artificial wombs, including links to a prototype experiment done with an animal. Very cool pics.
I think technology may eventually provide an answer to the abortion debate.
Sure, the woman can abort and the guy can try to get custody of the clump of cells.
Good luck.
Slappy_Longarms
Level 7
May 21, 2018
7
Boom. Checkmate.
I would say no one has a 'right' to a baby because a human being doesn't belong to anyone.
The rest becomes an issue of morality and practicality. I would say this...
A man does not have the right to a baby in a woman's body.
A man does have some right to a baby in a woman's body if he has paid a surrogate mother to have his child.
A man should not be financially responsible for a child he did not agree to have, especially if the woman deliberately tricked him. In that case the woman should take full responsibility.
When a couple have been foolish and not thought about protection and pregnancy has happened accidentally, the father does not have a right to the baby. This is the woman's decision. But since both parties have been foolish the man does not have the right to force an abortion either. He is also morally obliged to financially support the baby.
Laws need to change - including draconian laws that forbid grown adults from having sterilisation procedures. I've read articles about women and men being denied the procedure, for whatever reason.
The bottom line is - men don't have wombs.
Ellatynemouth
Level 8
May 20, 2018
7
You go girl!!
@Palacinky while technically correct, I have a hard time believing any trans man would try to force a woman to continue a pregnancy. They are, after all, well versed in the concept of bodily autonomy.
Do you realize that in 2018 women still die giving birth? So you want to insist that I carry through a pregnancy that could end up costing my life. What are you willing to pay me that would equal that cost? Lets say I don't die. I admit it is rare, and utterly tragic when it does happen. But I carry the baby for 9 months. My kidneys, liver, heart, bladder, muscles, ligaments and tendons will never be the same. What is the price for that? After birth even with modern medicine my milk is going to come in. I will be uncomfortable, hormonal, and physically debilitated for at least 6 to 8 weeks. Not to mention that your body NEVER goes back to prepregnancy shape. Can you really afford that? I'm not willing to do that for a schmoe I had a one night stand with. If you want a baby hire a surrogate with a contract that spells out everything. And yes, if a woman wants a baby there are sperm banks out there, she can do it without involving a biological father. No it doesn't seem fair but life is like that sometimes.
HippieChick58
Level 9
May 20, 2018
5
From your question and implied point of view, it sounds like you believe that life begins at conception. That's typically a religious position.
Until a fetus is viable (able to survive outside the mother's womb), it is not a child, and a man should not have any right to veto an abortion.
GinaKay
Level 7
May 20, 2018
5
No implication at all. That abortionable object is the beginning of the father's child. Timing isnt the issue. The result is.
@lerlo That is a stretch. I would say it is the "father's HOPE for the beginnings of a child." Some studies say that up to 25% of known pregnancies end in miscarriage. That number is likely much higher given many women miscarry without realizing they were pregnant.
Your proposals are nothing short of an attempt to control a woman's reproductive rights and that's not acceptable under any circumstances. And if you dig deeper, if a woman decides to give birth and goes after the father for child support that's a clear indication that they're no longer together - one needs to ask why because unless there's abuse it's rare for a woman to leave her partner at the most vulnerable time in her life.
Here's the thing - men are not victims here - if they are against abortion or child support, they should broach the issues with their partner before having sex. And that conversation should include whether she's using protection and whether she is or not he should double up on it by using his own protection - abortion and child support averted. But if he leaves it up to her - he forfeits his rights and should she abort or decide to have the kid - he needs to man up and accept either outcome.
SLBushway
Level 7
May 20, 2018
5
It's called a "poll" no "attempt" to do anything. Because if such attempts were possible I would hold a poll to abolish religion and trump. By the way, unless there is a written contract, he doesn't leave it up to her. The law says she gets to choose. That's what the poll is about.
Excellent comment!!!
The phrase "not acceptable under any circumstances" is the perfect example of an absolute "truth". Interesting! I didn't expect to find absolutism in this forum.
@COGITOERGOSUM We're talking about a woman's right to choose - not god - absolutism applies to one and not the other.
I don't get why this is still a question. What part of my body, my choice is so hard to understand?
Ruby_Slipper
Level 6
May 21, 2018
2
When you spend 6 weeks at home and 6 weeks in the hospital on bed rest, have 2 minor pelvic surgeries and major abdominal surgery, develop dangerous complications, go into liver failure and deliver 1lb. twins 3.5 months early that had over $1M in medical charges before they left the hospital, and all of us have lifelong physical, mental, emotional repercussions because of the pregnancy, come talk to me.
AdorkableMe
Level 7
May 20, 2018
5
Now that's one hell of a way to end a topic ....
@Simon1 Lol. And that is just the tip of the iceburg. You will notice he hasn't replied. ?
@Elusia8 Thank you, we are all pretty good now but it was quite a journey getting here. There is still stuff we deal with and always will, but that is just the normal for us.
"What is normal for the spider is chaos for the fly.”
Quote by Charles Addams
?
"A woman can fuck with impunity"? Por favor! Like men haven't? Grow up!
AzVixen52
Level 7
May 21, 2018
3
Maybe she sporfle 'knew what she was getting into...' snrrrk '...when she had...' heeheeheehee 'THE SEX.'. AHAHAHA... ????... Haaa... 'the sex...'. That's funny....
Okay, calming down.
Maybe she did know a pregnancy was likely, but no-one can know what health implications it can have for a woman until it happens--family history is a poor indicator and a lot of people who were adopted don't know their family history at all and are going into it blind. 9 months of medical trouble that could permanently ruin one's health or even kill one is a bit much to ask, I think.
memorylikeasieve
Level 7
May 20, 2018
5
Apparently from the answers here EVERYONE knows the possible medical implications of a pregnancy...calming down now 
@lerlo your post is demeaning and completely ignores the fact that any woman in this situation would be forced to give up a year of her life,Suffer and risk all the health problems that come with pregnancy and childbirth and you completely ignore that fact in your question. People are angry at you because your basic premise seems to be that a woman has no rights to her own body if a man "wants" a child. You seem to think that a man wanting a child carries more weight than a womans right to her own body and what happens to it. That's reprehensible.
OpposingOpposum
Level 9
May 21, 2018
3
The man has sex, whoop dee do. The woman goes through 9 months of pregnancy and childbirth which can cause death on occasion. How are those comparable?
The woman has no choice about whether or not to pay support for a child that she gives birth to either.
A man can adopt a child, or hire a surrogate. A woman can be artificially inseminated. There are certainly other ways to have a child than force a woman to go through with a pregnancy against her will.
Stephanie99
Level 8
May 20, 2018
3
Nice avoidance of the question
@Jnei No, she gave all the reasons why it's so hard on a woman and completely avoided the man's side of the equation, leaving it to "he had sex." The comment I left raised both sides and I expected the bias, was just trying to see if people would answer the question considering both sides. Totally avoids that its his child too.
@GinaKay Just trying to get answers that consider that its the guys child too. I knew the biased opinions would come, I listed them in my comment. I 'm just looking for the poll numbers and hopefully some thoughtful discussion. Check how many responses here mention that its also the man's child and then ask who wants thoughtful discussion.
@lerlo It isn't a child when the abortion happens. It's a tiny clump of cells.
@lerlo If it is born then it is a child and both parents are responsible for its upbringing.
@lerlo Your question misstates the situation. There is no child to keep or not keep.
Jnei:
@lerlo "No, she gave all the reasons why it's so hard on a woman and completely avoided the man's side of the equation, leaving it to "he had sex" - so, to sum up, she gave reasons explaining why she believes a man does not have the right to prevent a woman having an abortion - and thus answered the question.
@lerlo I answered the question when I voted. I was elaborating.
@lerlo bacause thats literally the entirety of a mans role in procreation, whether you like it or not.
The father can have the child as long as he can provide for it's gestation. No woman should be forced to gestate.
It's not completely far fetched to think that medical science might yet find a way to transplant an embryo between a donor and a surrogate, or that gestation chambers other than a uterus might yet be invented.
I do agree that the laws need revisited regarding who chooses to continue a pregnancy vs who does not and the legal (financial) rights stemming from that stand if properly documented.
Zster
Level 8
May 20, 2018
5
Enjoy being online again!
Welcome to the community of good people who base their values on evidence and appreciate civil discourse - the social network you will enjoy.Create your free account
Share this post
Related Groups More
Memes R Us
3036 members
Categories
Agnostic does not evaluate or guarantee the accuracy of any content. Read full disclaimer.