You’ve mentioned ‘immigration’ a couple of times, and I wonder if we’re on the same page..? A West Coast native, I’ve watched the devastating effect of unchecked illegal immigration. Democrats, realizing that ‘bugged’ Republicans, adapted an ‘open borders’ policy that was shared by both Hillary and Bernie. Not me.

But attempting to describe the detrimental effects of an unchecked influx of paternalistic catholic-based poorly educated economic refugees.. sent them into fits. When Obama issued his ‘executive amnesty,’ I wrote both the white house and my congressional rep to let them know why I was leaving their party… Then to watch trump ride this issue to victory.. Anyway, I don’t play straight party politics.

@Varn This issue is so convoluted and complicated yet people seem to get on one bandwagon or another. I think we are on the same page. However, to me it is not about immigrants but the immigration policy.

Under Obama more illegal immigrants were deported than under any other president. We had a Latino Immigration lawyer come and give a talk and that was his big beef. Unfortunately, the Republicans aren't doing much better. This issue transcends politics; it is pushed by industry trying to get cheap and controllable labor. They have found ways to spin the issue to promote inaction due to polarization.

The present policies are a fiasco and a open borders policy would be disastrous. The citizens of other countries are suffering from the massive influx of immigrants but seem powerless to deal with it hence the fighting (this was a big part of Brexit and the popularity of right wing politicians in some country's).

Unfortunately, voting for republicans today is even more disastrous and still won't solve the excessive immigration problem. Look into NumbersUSA an organization advocating reduced immigration based on environmental reasons.

@JackPedigo You say, “They have found ways to spin the issue to promote inaction due to polarization.” BINGO. And, “this was a big part of Brexit and the popularity of right wing politicians in some country's” - Yes.

I’m a fan of NumbersUSA (had a fb knock-down drag-out with a liberal friend over my advocating them), and was a charter member of Oregonians For Immigration Reform, ‘OFIR.’ No longer an Oregonian, I miss them. But, as you likely know, their politics supported R’s… And yes, compared to Bush-2, Obama was far more restrictive on illegal immigration, but could hardly ‘advertise’ that while wooing the Latino vote… Complex in deed, and at the hart of many conservative movements, as noted. Thank you for clarifying, and glad you’re here.

From every report I have seen there were 2 reasons for tRumps win. One was the number of disenfranchised and poorly educated voters who often vote Republican. The other were the liberals who were upset Bernie was not chosen (there was a big group called the Bernie Brothers who did not want any woman to lead). In Seattle there was a loudmouth city councilperson who went around the country telling people not to vote for Hilary. After she was chosen this person told everyone not to vote for tRump. The big problem was the dearth of people voting.

I don't see the problem as primarily religion.Most Libertarians are atheist. Polarization as the main problem especially when it came to immigration. I witnessed this in Europe first hand and saw the exact same thing here.

@JackPedigo I am likely concentrating too much on the republican harvesting of religious fanatics. One thing I’ve heard little about but feel I’d stumbled onto were ‘liberal posers’ on facebook, attacking Hillary supporters with an undue virulence. Their posts would ‘read’ as if they were ‘Americans,’ but the most rabid Bernie supporters I knew would not have become that hostile. I think there were paid instigators on ‘social media,’ paid by whom, I don’t know...

It’s also been noted the ‘black vote’ was uninspired and lower than when Obama ran… Not cool.. But there was serious complacency. Having seen trump in action, along with Hillery’s continued ‘lead in the polls,’ too many assumed she’d win. I did, the only question being, by single or double digits…

The republican industrial puppeteers have done a stellar job of focusing hate via continuous (not just ‘election season&rsquo radio & cable propaganda ... trump simply plugged into it. Trying to keep this brief ..Industrialists have framed ‘liberals’ as the cause of US economic decline and world dominance - when in reality, it’s competition. There’s a reason we’re encouraged to become ‘Great again!’ ...because we’re the only nation on earth that’s watched it’s standard of living decrease after winning WW2 … while witnessing a battered world catch up - and pass.

Thanks for the OFIR tip. I am going to have dinner with a couple from and still connected with Oregon. It will be interesting to get their take on this group.

I previously made a statement on this very issue. I don't do thing's cold Tofurkey (vegetarian) and when I left the Catholic church I went to a group, Earth Ministry, that was a conglomeration of other religions, primarily Unitarian and Quakers. That worked for a while but my new partner (a lifelong Atheist from Iran) saw through the rhetoric and talked some sense into me. My comment is longer and more detailed.