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This is something I am re-hashing from another website, because there seems to be a highly intelligent and rather diverse community here, and I am interested in input. Original post is at this link.
[changeaview.com]

Response to the statement: Abortion has factors which are too diverse to not be a choice.

The debate over abortion has many facets that seem to complicate the issue beyond the ability for anyone except the individual effected to be able to make the decision. Both sides make arguments from morality, use well established science to justify their positions, and make strong but fundamentally contradictory philosophical arguments for or against it's legality.

However, and the main point that I think will change your mind, is that both of these positions, ( pro-life and pro-choice ) ignore the actual issue, which is undesired pregnancy. This debate is about damage control, and therefore the way it is handled should be secondary to preventing the unwanted pregnancy in the first place.

For women, there are countless methods available to counteract or prevent pregnancy, however with the exception of abstinence none of these methods are not 100% effective. This results in hundreds of thousands of unwanted pregnancies per year. For men, only true 3 methods of birth control are available ( celibacy, condoms, and vasectomy ) There is no equivalent birth control method available for men due to the difficulties in manufacturing such a drug, however many drug companies are actively trying to develop such a method.

You might think about each method of birth control as another filter that reduces the number of pregnancies at each level. For example, if birth control is 99% effective then adding another layer that is 99% effective will increase the effectiveness to 99.99%. By minimizing the number of people who enter a situation where abortion becomes an option, it's legality or criminality becomes statistically less relevant. In summary, the solution to abortion is to stop the need for them to occur.

Happy_Killbot 7 Nov 10
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9 comments

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. . . safe, legal, rare

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Why are you posting a huge blurb. It is very simple. A woman makes the decision in consultation with a doctor. Done.

ToolGuy Level 8 Nov 14, 2019

No, it's not that simple, I think you totally miss the point here.

Abortion is still wrong, even where it is legal. Not allowing for abortion is wrong, even where it is still legal.

Disconnecting sex from pregnancy just doesn't get discussed. That's my argument.

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It is nobody's business if a woman wants to have an abortion, nobody's.

Jolanta Level 8 Nov 14, 2019

It's the unborn babies business.

As far as I am concerned, both pro-life and pro-choice are in the moral wrong, which is why decoupling sex from childbirth is the only morally appropriate solution.

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Undesired pregnancy is the issue. That is true. Stopping or reducing unplanned pregnancy should be the goal. Not sure what you are trying to say with all of this.

GreatNani Level 8 Nov 11, 2019

I'm trying to say exactly what you said, plus social justification, personal justification, normalization, and an outlet for it's development.

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That about sums it up, bearing in mind that every nuance could not be succinctly covered. There is, in practice, no reason why both sexes should not take responsibility for it, they should. There are many reasons why men do not take responsibility for contraception, but the primary reason is that men can easily evade the consequences and responsibility of pregnancy.

Magister Level 5 Nov 11, 2019
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Far too many words.

You'll have more readers if you make your point succinctly.

Your last sentence sums it up, well; "solution to abortion is to stop the need for them to occur."

But you ignore the #religulous of the world who support male dominance, women enslavement, etc.

Try supporting Planned Parenthood. Great start....

[weareplannedparenthoodaction.org]

Robecology Level 8 Nov 11, 2019

I think the reason this doesn't have much traction is because of planned parenthood. Their business model needs people to have abortions in order to survive, so a technology that would actually make parenthood planed would totally disrupt their business.

The Allies in this struggle are major drug companies and the government for research grants.

@Happy_Killbot Where did you get that impression....that they need abortions to survive? Links, evidence, please.

...and the drug companies are allies in the struggle to do what? Encourage abortions?

Do you know what "agnostic" means?

We need proof.

I'm sure you're wrong about this. I shared you a link with plenty of info to the contrary of what you spoke.

Your turn...

@Robecology Say no to abortion and yes to sexual freedom! Everyone should have as much sex as they want without risking pregnancy.

This policy is neither pro-life or pro-choice, It's pro-freedom.

Scroll down to the services and financial data section.

[plannedparenthood.org]

While abortions account for 3% of their services, they account for about 12% of their revenue. If they were to switch to an overwhelmingly contraception based model, the income from the sale of male contraception may not adequately supplement the lost revenue from not performing abortions. Keep in mind, this technology would drop the number of unwanted pregnancies to thousands per year, depending on use, effectiveness and proliferation. that's assuming 99.9% effectiveness and 90% use by sexually active persons. It is also possible that the male birth control drug could actually boost their income by creating a lifelong customer, thus offsetting the cost in the long run. This is all speculative because I don't know how much this drug would cost, but I will assume it would be comparable to female birth control.

@Happy_Killbot

You're putting words in my mouth that I never said.

What makes you assume I say or think that it's correct to "Say no to abortion and yes to sexual freedom! Everyone should have as much sex as they want without risking pregnancy."

I'm afraid I'm going to have to report you if you continue to attack and slander me and PP.

In June, PPFA and Planned Parenthood Action Fund launched a new website called TrackingTrump.org, to unpack what each new administration policy is, its harmful effects, and who’s behind it.

Their goal has, quite logically....to have planned parenthood first. Abortions are never recommended as a "family planning tool" as you suggest.

They're in concert with your original idea! As you said -

"In summary, the solution to abortion is to stop the need for them to occur."

READ THE ENTIRE SITE. Contact PP and chat with them....they'll tell you what I'm saying.

Your suggestion about male contraception drugs is also, while a good idea, naive.

Please; call them; ask them what you've asked me. They have better answers.

AND AGAIN; I WELCOME DEBATE; BUT I WARN YOU ABOUT SLANDER.

Planned Parenthood/Customer service
1 (800) 230-7526
Contact planned parenthood

@Robecology Please see the image I added, I think that should make everything clear, there is no doubt in my mind that if this technology could be developed that planned parenthood would adopt it, sort of as a consolation prize and like I said, that could have a positive, negative, or neutral effect on their finances, that's all speculative.

At the end of the day, they are a company and that means they have a fiscal responsibility to their shareholders to maximize profit. That isn't slander, its just economics, which is why I opt for the technocratic solution instead.

Male contraception is the entire idea, the only thing that's naive about it is that it doesn't exist yet. My entire argument is that it should exist, then the abortion debate becomes a trivial matter.

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It's a women's choice... Period... End of story... No one should make decisions about a pregnant woman.. Her body, her choice...

What about the man's role in the pregnancy? I don't know why no one talks about this, ( maybe men are just self concious and try to save face? ) but there is little to control from the male once they decide to have sex. Everyone should be able to decide what they want to do with their body, and that means that if a couple wants to have a baby, both parents should consent.

Condoms are lousy and pulling out is like russian roulette. This debate is like arguing about how to fight a raging house fire instead of debating over how to prevent fires in the first place.

@Happy_Killbot the man already played his role in the pregnancy... He deposited his sperm.. It's the women who has to go through many changes in her body, her health, and her lifestyle for nine months and then many years afterwards...

"there is little to control from the male once they decide to have sex. "

Why does the male deserve any control?

@Cutiebeauty This is what I'm talking about when I say "damage control" the woman should only have 50% vote in getting pregnant in the first place, because the man is legaly required to pay child support.

If the status quo was any woman could walk down the street, point to any man and say " I want his babies" and then he has to pay child support, that would be just as fucked up as what used to happen in the ancient world where men had the power to do substantialy the same thing to women.

My point is that the pregnancy should not occur unless both parents consent to the pregnancy, and the way to do that without abandoning sex altogether, is male equivalent birth control, to reduce unwanted pregnancies to thousands per year instead of hundreds of thousands.

@Happy_Killbot you do realize that it's the man that impregnates the woman, right? A woman can't impregnate anyone... So when a man does impregnate a woman, and she decides to have the child, he doesn't get veto power simply because he doesn't want to pay child support... That's very irresponsible on his part...

@Cutiebeauty You realize it's the woman who's getting pregnant right? A man can't get pregnant... So when a woman does get pregnant ( except in the instance of rape ) she share the irresponsibility.

That's why my stance is to never get to the "She's pregnant and doesn't want to be" part in the first place. Say no to irresponsibility and yes to sexual freedom!

@Happy_Killbot OK, you're twisting words now without trying to understand... Please try another response... I won't reply to this one...

@Cutiebeauty The Image I added should explain my argument in it's entirety.

Yes, in an ideal world there would be no unwanted pregnancies and therefore no abortions... but how do we attempt to create such a world?

Perhaps the kind of freedom we need is the freedom to be celebate and to masturbate creatively! ...the freedom to be single and not have sex with anyone you wouldn't consider procreating with... the freedom to not feel alone or weird or needy or a freak to be single and childless and godless ... forever if necessary!

Perhaps sexual freedom IS irresponsibility... irresponsible for the possible unwanted pregnancy, possibly leading to an abortion or unplanned human populatuon increase, not to mention emotional chaos! ... jealousy, depression, murder etc.! ... maybe we should be encouraging sexual responsibility or celebacy instead of sexual freedom .... are celebacy and masturbation encouraged or even mentioned in sexual education? or love and mutual emotional compatibility? ... maybe some no-sex adverts! ...
This is a national health warning! Sex can lead to unwanted pregnancy! ... Just say no to sex! ... And yes to drugs! hmmm .... but humans are animals and sex is addictive and a powerful evolutionary force to boot .... maybe using sex in advertising should be restricted .... I don't think you can expect unwanted pregnancies to not occur if you encourage everyone to have sex with lots of people .... even if a male contraceptive were developed it would not likely be 100% fail-safe and vasectomy is not very attractive to most men ...

God I need to have sex! 6 years of celebacy sucks!

Well actually it's been great, I've travelled, cultivated organic vegetables, planted trees, sailed across the Atlantic, written creatively, taken artistic photos, drawn portraits and original alien dreamscapes, practiced and busked on trumpet, tin-whistle, treble recorder, made lots of new friends, practiced fasting and yoga, climbed mountains... there are plenty of creative and responsible things to do and enjoy in this life without having sex or a sexual partner...

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Incentive and discouraginng action for abortion and againnst abortion is required to be taken socialy, professionaly in job sector.

allmighty Level 6 Nov 11, 2019
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There has been a marked decrease in states where birth control information is available and planned parenthood is funded. In states where religious beliefs prohibit this abortion rates rise, it more about religious beliefs than women's health

bobwjr Level 9 Nov 10, 2019

Just to clarify what you are saying here, states where information on abortion is available have lower abortion rates, and states where religion restricts information of abortion there are more abortion?

I don't really understand that, at what point was this information disseminated by the state government? Even in schools that don't give sex ed, it's sort of trivial because the internet allows everyone to talk about this freely.

@Happy_Killbot yup data supports that conclusion

@Happy_Killbot in states where birth control information is prohibited schools can't teach i it doctors can't advise planned parenthood is defunded, that is what red states do

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