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He Pope compares abortion to 'hiring a HITMAN' as he says it can never be condoned
With the ...
WilliamFleming comments on May 26, 2019:
In our arguments for a woman’s right to choose, I think we’d be more effective if we recognize and address that there is more to our opponents’ arguments than just mindless religious hypocrisy.
While there is certainly an element of religiosity, we are also fighting against an important ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 27, 2019:
@powder They are two different things but they are related. I was talking about the workings of nature. Obviously humans are not pigs nor stalks of corn, but some of the same principles apply, and many of us feel sadness when natural events violate our sensibilities.
No, I do not advocate the culling of unwanted offspring after birth.
WilliamFleming comments on May 26, 2019:
In our arguments for a woman’s right to choose, I think we’d be more effective if we recognize and address that there is more to our opponents’ arguments than just mindless religious hypocrisy.
While there is certainly an element of religiosity, we are also fighting against an important ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 27, 2019:
@powder They are two different things but they are related. I was talking about the workings of nature. Obviously humans are not pigs nor stalks of corn, but some of the same principles apply, and many of us feel sadness when natural events violate our sensibilities.
No, I do not advocate the culling of unwanted offspring after birth.
He Pope compares abortion to 'hiring a HITMAN' as he says it can never be condoned
With the ...
WilliamFleming comments on May 26, 2019:
In our arguments for a woman’s right to choose, I think we’d be more effective if we recognize and address that there is more to our opponents’ arguments than just mindless religious hypocrisy.
While there is certainly an element of religiosity, we are also fighting against an important ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 26, 2019:
@MLinoge Good points. I think to understand you have to realize there are a bunch of empty-headed political types strutting around, saying whatever they think will win favor with voters or with their church flock.
They are mistaken in what they think IMO. A majority favors choice. At some point that will become apparent and they’ll be spouting off for choice.
WilliamFleming comments on May 26, 2019:
In our arguments for a woman’s right to choose, I think we’d be more effective if we recognize and address that there is more to our opponents’ arguments than just mindless religious hypocrisy.
While there is certainly an element of religiosity, we are also fighting against an important ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 26, 2019:
@MLinoge Good points. I think to understand you have to realize there are a bunch of empty-headed political types strutting around, saying whatever they think will win favor with voters or with their church flock.
They are mistaken in what they think IMO. A majority favors choice. At some point that will become apparent and they’ll be spouting off for choice.
Are We Living in an Ancestor Simulation? ft. Neil deGrasse Tyson | Space Time - YouTube
BestWithoutGods comments on May 26, 2019:
I find this laughable until I see evidence that it is correct. :D
WilliamFleming replies on May 26, 2019:
@BestWithoutGods It’s entertaining to think about.
BestWithoutGods comments on May 26, 2019:
I find this laughable until I see evidence that it is correct. :D
WilliamFleming replies on May 26, 2019:
@BestWithoutGods It’s entertaining to think about.
Majority in Brazil's top court to make homophobia and transphobia crimes - BBC News
WilliamFleming comments on May 25, 2019:
How can you enforce a law against fear? I understand laws against hateful acts, but we have no control over our fears. With awareness we can control our actions. Maybe something got lost in the translation.
Our fears often exist for legitimate purposes. IMO a measure of fear in connection with ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 26, 2019:
@Kafirah OK, I get what you are saying. There is a gradation when it comes to sexuality, and there’re different types of phobias, different levels.
Sounds about right.
WilliamFleming comments on May 25, 2019:
How can you enforce a law against fear? I understand laws against hateful acts, but we have no control over our fears. With awareness we can control our actions. Maybe something got lost in the translation.
Our fears often exist for legitimate purposes. IMO a measure of fear in connection with ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 26, 2019:
@Kafirah OK, I get what you are saying. There is a gradation when it comes to sexuality, and there’re different types of phobias, different levels.
Sounds about right.
If this means conservative Christians would move away from the rest of us, I'm all for it.
WilliamFleming comments on May 25, 2019:
If they propose to be a US state wouldn’t they be subject to the constitution the same as all the other states? The Supreme Court might have something to say about their proposals.
WilliamFleming replies on May 26, 2019:
@Triphid The Mormon Church appears, in my opinion, to have been founded on lies. How any rational person can be taken in by the account of Joseph Smith is beyond me.
I hate authoritarianism in any form.
WilliamFleming comments on May 25, 2019:
If they propose to be a US state wouldn’t they be subject to the constitution the same as all the other states? The Supreme Court might have something to say about their proposals.
WilliamFleming replies on May 26, 2019:
@Triphid The Mormon Church appears, in my opinion, to have been founded on lies. How any rational person can be taken in by the account of Joseph Smith is beyond me.
I hate authoritarianism in any form.
Majority in Brazil's top court to make homophobia and transphobia crimes - BBC News
WilliamFleming comments on May 25, 2019:
How can you enforce a law against fear? I understand laws against hateful acts, but we have no control over our fears. With awareness we can control our actions. Maybe something got lost in the translation.
Our fears often exist for legitimate purposes. IMO a measure of fear in connection with ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 26, 2019:
@Kafirah My understanding is that all males have innate homosexual tendencies, and that a majority cover up that tendency because of natural and healthy subconscious fear. That fear, just like the fear of falling, is there for a reason and is not something to be disparaged. I, for one, am not ashamed of my natural fears. Being true to myself includes recognizing my inner fears and their beneficence.
The modern politically correct bunch irrationally throws out the word “phobia” as though to have a fear is the most evil, diabolical condition imaginable. And now apparently in Brazil it is illegal to have a phobia. If you want to demonize or harass people you need to find a better rationale IMO.
WilliamFleming comments on May 25, 2019:
How can you enforce a law against fear? I understand laws against hateful acts, but we have no control over our fears. With awareness we can control our actions. Maybe something got lost in the translation.
Our fears often exist for legitimate purposes. IMO a measure of fear in connection with ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 26, 2019:
@Kafirah My understanding is that all males have innate homosexual tendencies, and that a majority cover up that tendency because of natural and healthy subconscious fear. That fear, just like the fear of falling, is there for a reason and is not something to be disparaged. I, for one, am not ashamed of my natural fears. Being true to myself includes recognizing my inner fears and their beneficence.
The modern politically correct bunch irrationally throws out the word “phobia” as though to have a fear is the most evil, diabolical condition imaginable. And now apparently in Brazil it is illegal to have a phobia. If you want to demonize or harass people you need to find a better rationale IMO.
If this means conservative Christians would move away from the rest of us, I'm all for it.
WilliamFleming comments on May 25, 2019:
If they propose to be a US state wouldn’t they be subject to the constitution the same as all the other states? The Supreme Court might have something to say about their proposals.
WilliamFleming replies on May 25, 2019:
@Triphid Holy smokes!! I had no idea it was like that.congratulations on your escape. Are they hounding you to come back?
WilliamFleming comments on May 25, 2019:
If they propose to be a US state wouldn’t they be subject to the constitution the same as all the other states? The Supreme Court might have something to say about their proposals.
WilliamFleming replies on May 25, 2019:
@Triphid Holy smokes!! I had no idea it was like that.congratulations on your escape. Are they hounding you to come back?
If this means conservative Christians would move away from the rest of us, I'm all for it.
WilliamFleming comments on May 25, 2019:
If they propose to be a US state wouldn’t they be subject to the constitution the same as all the other states? The Supreme Court might have something to say about their proposals.
WilliamFleming replies on May 25, 2019:
@Triphid Here’s an LA Times on that subject. Does it sound right?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1993-03-21-mn-13641-story,amp.html
WilliamFleming comments on May 25, 2019:
If they propose to be a US state wouldn’t they be subject to the constitution the same as all the other states? The Supreme Court might have something to say about their proposals.
WilliamFleming replies on May 25, 2019:
@Triphid Here’s an LA Times on that subject. Does it sound right?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1993-03-21-mn-13641-story,amp.html
Todd Starnes Sold Us a War on Christianity. We Bought It. - Christ and Pop Culture
mcgeo52 comments on May 24, 2019:
WilliamFleming replies on May 24, 2019:
@mcgeo52 Trump was not elected for his Christianity. He’s more of a secular kind of guy, and that’s what we need in today’s world. He did not promise to turn the other cheek or to give away national resources.
Since you seem to be trumpeting Christian principles, how about that part about loving your neighbor as yourself. Does DT qualify as your neighbor?
mcgeo52 comments on May 24, 2019:
WilliamFleming replies on May 24, 2019:
@mcgeo52 Trump was not elected for his Christianity. He’s more of a secular kind of guy, and that’s what we need in today’s world. He did not promise to turn the other cheek or to give away national resources.
Since you seem to be trumpeting Christian principles, how about that part about loving your neighbor as yourself. Does DT qualify as your neighbor?
It Turns Out Christians Have More Abortions Than Any Other Religious Group In America - MTV
WilliamFleming comments on May 24, 2019:
Seventy five percent of Americans say they are Christians, so one would expect Christians to have more abortions. At 70%, Christians are underrepresented in the abortion pool.
While abortion is illegal in Saudi Arabia, abortions do occur there.
...
WilliamFleming replies on May 24, 2019:
@Deiter the remarks about Saudi Arabia were intended as an analogy to illustrate the illogic of attributing abortions in the US to Christianity.
Yes, at 70% there are more Christians seeking divorce than non-Christians, but 75% of Americans say they are Christian, so Christians are underrepresented. Evangelicals are even more underrepresented. A third of Christians are evangelicals but only 23% of Christians who seek abortions are evangelicals.
If from this study you are deducing that religion leads to abortion you are making unwarranted assumptions. Correlation does not equal causation, but there’s no correlation in the first place.
WilliamFleming comments on May 24, 2019:
Seventy five percent of Americans say they are Christians, so one would expect Christians to have more abortions. At 70%, Christians are underrepresented in the abortion pool.
While abortion is illegal in Saudi Arabia, abortions do occur there.
...
WilliamFleming replies on May 24, 2019:
@Deiter the remarks about Saudi Arabia were intended as an analogy to illustrate the illogic of attributing abortions in the US to Christianity.
Yes, at 70% there are more Christians seeking divorce than non-Christians, but 75% of Americans say they are Christian, so Christians are underrepresented. Evangelicals are even more underrepresented. A third of Christians are evangelicals but only 23% of Christians who seek abortions are evangelicals.
If from this study you are deducing that religion leads to abortion you are making unwarranted assumptions. Correlation does not equal causation, but there’s no correlation in the first place.
Alabama...really? Your abortion law is just another reason I hate religion.
WilliamFleming comments on May 18, 2019:
It is interesting that when it comes to certain issues, liberals become libertarians, arguing that government has no right to meddle in private affairs.
Welcome to the fold guys!
WilliamFleming replies on May 24, 2019:
@thinktwice They should not be calling themselves libertarians IMO.
WilliamFleming comments on May 18, 2019:
It is interesting that when it comes to certain issues, liberals become libertarians, arguing that government has no right to meddle in private affairs.
Welcome to the fold guys!
WilliamFleming replies on May 24, 2019:
@thinktwice They should not be calling themselves libertarians IMO.
Todd Starnes Sold Us a War on Christianity. We Bought It. - Christ and Pop Culture
mcgeo52 comments on May 24, 2019:
WilliamFleming replies on May 24, 2019:
@DenoPenno Legally we have no choice but to accept his presidency. We don’t have to like the guy.
The fewer people we dislike the happier we are. That’s my mantra for today. :-)
mcgeo52 comments on May 24, 2019:
WilliamFleming replies on May 24, 2019:
@DenoPenno Legally we have no choice but to accept his presidency. We don’t have to like the guy.
The fewer people we dislike the happier we are. That’s my mantra for today. :-)
Alabama...really? Your abortion law is just another reason I hate religion.
WilliamFleming comments on May 18, 2019:
It is interesting that when it comes to certain issues, liberals become libertarians, arguing that government has no right to meddle in private affairs.
Welcome to the fold guys!
WilliamFleming replies on May 24, 2019:
@thinktwice I’m surprised and sorry to hear that.
WilliamFleming comments on May 18, 2019:
It is interesting that when it comes to certain issues, liberals become libertarians, arguing that government has no right to meddle in private affairs.
Welcome to the fold guys!
WilliamFleming replies on May 24, 2019:
@thinktwice I’m surprised and sorry to hear that.
As a freethinker I don't believe in life after death.
WilliamFleming comments on May 23, 2019:
As a freethinker I think the concepts of before and after are illusory mind tools. There is no after. There is the continuum of life and of conscious awareness.
Our sense of self as a separate individual in a body is just imagination. Hoping for eternity in heaven for yourself is a foolish and ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 24, 2019:
@DenoPenno In one sense he is his mother, along with all of us. That’s how I see it anyway.
We have to think with our egos to survive. It’s OK.
WilliamFleming comments on May 23, 2019:
As a freethinker I think the concepts of before and after are illusory mind tools. There is no after. There is the continuum of life and of conscious awareness.
Our sense of self as a separate individual in a body is just imagination. Hoping for eternity in heaven for yourself is a foolish and ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 24, 2019:
@DenoPenno In one sense he is his mother, along with all of us. That’s how I see it anyway.
We have to think with our egos to survive. It’s OK.
Alabama...really? Your abortion law is just another reason I hate religion.
WilliamFleming comments on May 18, 2019:
It is interesting that when it comes to certain issues, liberals become libertarians, arguing that government has no right to meddle in private affairs.
Welcome to the fold guys!
WilliamFleming replies on May 24, 2019:
@thinktwice The official Libertarian platform advocates freedom to choose.
WilliamFleming comments on May 18, 2019:
It is interesting that when it comes to certain issues, liberals become libertarians, arguing that government has no right to meddle in private affairs.
Welcome to the fold guys!
WilliamFleming replies on May 24, 2019:
@thinktwice The official Libertarian platform advocates freedom to choose.
Todd Starnes Sold Us a War on Christianity. We Bought It. - Christ and Pop Culture
mcgeo52 comments on May 24, 2019:
WilliamFleming replies on May 24, 2019:
Other than ramping up border security, I’m not aware of any Trump actions that are particularly “anti-Christian”. How many immigrants do you think should be allowed in? What do you think should be done with illegal immigrants? Do you favor open borders?
I am dismayed at the constant scapegoating of “evangelicals”. Hillary Clinton is an evangelical. Al Gore is another. What about all those Catholics and mainline Protestants who support Trump? Are you denying them the benefit of your scorn? What about me? I support Trump because he is our legally elected President.
It’s not fair to hate only evangelicals. You should hate all of us equally.
mcgeo52 comments on May 24, 2019:
WilliamFleming replies on May 24, 2019:
Other than ramping up border security, I’m not aware of any Trump actions that are particularly “anti-Christian”. How many immigrants do you think should be allowed in? What do you think should be done with illegal immigrants? Do you favor open borders?
I am dismayed at the constant scapegoating of “evangelicals”. Hillary Clinton is an evangelical. Al Gore is another. What about all those Catholics and mainline Protestants who support Trump? Are you denying them the benefit of your scorn? What about me? I support Trump because he is our legally elected President.
It’s not fair to hate only evangelicals. You should hate all of us equally.
Why do i believe in science?
WilliamFleming comments on May 23, 2019:
I don’t believe in science. I don’t believe in anything. The answers given by science are limited and superficial and do not address the deep questions of existence. Science is a great boon for mankind but has no role as a belief system.
There are some very intriguing ideas in religion and ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 23, 2019:
@St-Sinner Science has given answers but those answers don’t satisfy. Metaphysics might not be necessary but neither is art, music, cinema, etc. yet we benefit from those things.
Hindu scriptures are good sources for intuitive metaphysical insights. I’m not talking about beliefs. I am talking about awareness, appreciation and reverence.
Why do you want to believe stuff. Science is not a belief system. Study science deeply enough and you’ll be led straight into the world of metaphysics.
Albert Einstein:
“Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds. The mediocre mind is incapable of understanding the man who refuses to bow blindly to conventional prejudices and chooses instead to express his opinions courageously and honestly."
“The most beautiful experience we can have is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion that stands at the cradle of true art and true science."
“My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind."
“There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle.”
Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.
Try and penetrate with our limited means the secrets of nature and you will find that, behind all the discernible concatenations, there remains something subtle, intangible and inexplicable. Veneration for this force beyond anything that we can comprehend is my religion. To that extent I am, in point of fact, religious.
I believe in Spinoza's God, Who reveals Himself in the lawful harmony of the world, not in a God Who concerns Himself with the fate and the doings of mankind.
"I'm not an atheist, and I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God. We see the universe marvelously arranged and obeying certain laws but only dimly understand these laws. Our limited minds grasp the mysterious force that moves the constellations."
http://www.deism.com/einsteingodletter.htm
WilliamFleming comments on May 23, 2019:
I don’t believe in science. I don’t believe in anything. The answers given by science are limited and superficial and do not address the deep questions of existence. Science is a great boon for mankind but has no role as a belief system.
There are some very intriguing ideas in religion and ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 23, 2019:
@St-Sinner Science has given answers but those answers don’t satisfy. Metaphysics might not be necessary but neither is art, music, cinema, etc. yet we benefit from those things.
Hindu scriptures are good sources for intuitive metaphysical insights. I’m not talking about beliefs. I am talking about awareness, appreciation and reverence.
Why do you want to believe stuff. Science is not a belief system. Study science deeply enough and you’ll be led straight into the world of metaphysics.
Albert Einstein:
“Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds. The mediocre mind is incapable of understanding the man who refuses to bow blindly to conventional prejudices and chooses instead to express his opinions courageously and honestly."
“The most beautiful experience we can have is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion that stands at the cradle of true art and true science."
“My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind."
“There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle.”
Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.
Try and penetrate with our limited means the secrets of nature and you will find that, behind all the discernible concatenations, there remains something subtle, intangible and inexplicable. Veneration for this force beyond anything that we can comprehend is my religion. To that extent I am, in point of fact, religious.
I believe in Spinoza's God, Who reveals Himself in the lawful harmony of the world, not in a God Who concerns Himself with the fate and the doings of mankind.
"I'm not an atheist, and I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God. We see the universe marvelously arranged and obeying certain laws but only dimly understand these laws. Our limited minds grasp the mysterious force that moves the constellations."
http://www.deism.com/einsteingodletter.htm
Tribalism: An exploration of the mechanisms that drive tribalism - and that offer a way out of it.
bobwjr comments on May 22, 2019:
This is a great illustration explains why seemingly intelligent people act against their own welfare and further explains trumps supporters
WilliamFleming replies on May 23, 2019:
@VictoriaNotes There’s moral grandstanding by some of the religious folks, and also by progressives who claim to be fighting for needy people. How many times have we read on this very forum that atheistic liberals are more moral than church people?
Moral grandstanding.
bobwjr comments on May 22, 2019:
This is a great illustration explains why seemingly intelligent people act against their own welfare and further explains trumps supporters
WilliamFleming replies on May 23, 2019:
@VictoriaNotes There’s moral grandstanding by some of the religious folks, and also by progressives who claim to be fighting for needy people. How many times have we read on this very forum that atheistic liberals are more moral than church people?
Moral grandstanding.
Texas is about to get a ‘Save Chick-fil-A’ law that legalizes anti-LGBTQ discrimination / LGBTQ ...
Katsarecool comments on May 21, 2019:
Close the place down! Ive been boycotting since 2005. My family refuses to eat there too. There really isnt anyplace for hate in our society.
WilliamFleming replies on May 23, 2019:
@snytiger6, @Katsarecool “I have no compassion for people who discriminate or choose to hate.”
“Darkness cannot drive out darkness, only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.”
—Martin Luther King, Jr.
Katsarecool comments on May 21, 2019:
Close the place down! Ive been boycotting since 2005. My family refuses to eat there too. There really isnt anyplace for hate in our society.
WilliamFleming replies on May 23, 2019:
@snytiger6, @Katsarecool “I have no compassion for people who discriminate or choose to hate.”
“Darkness cannot drive out darkness, only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.”
—Martin Luther King, Jr.
Texas is about to get a ‘Save Chick-fil-A’ law that legalizes anti-LGBTQ discrimination / LGBTQ ...
Katsarecool comments on May 21, 2019:
Close the place down! Ive been boycotting since 2005. My family refuses to eat there too. There really isnt anyplace for hate in our society.
WilliamFleming replies on May 23, 2019:
@snytiger6 IF that’s all he said, no. But that’s not the way he put it.
It’s a small matter, but IMO you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar.
Katsarecool comments on May 21, 2019:
Close the place down! Ive been boycotting since 2005. My family refuses to eat there too. There really isnt anyplace for hate in our society.
WilliamFleming replies on May 23, 2019:
@snytiger6 IF that’s all he said, no. But that’s not the way he put it.
It’s a small matter, but IMO you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar.
When will the massive influence of money stop in the U.S. elections?
WilliamFleming comments on May 23, 2019:
Since 1818 corporations have been deemed to have the same rights as individuals. Is there anything wrong with that?
WilliamFleming replies on May 23, 2019:
@St-Sinner They are composed of people, and those people have rights collectively. Nobody thinks that a corporation is a person but there is a very long legal tradition that corporations be treated the same as if they were individuals. Is there something immoral or wrong about that? If so what? Do you suggest that corporations are bad and should be outlawed?
WilliamFleming comments on May 23, 2019:
Since 1818 corporations have been deemed to have the same rights as individuals. Is there anything wrong with that?
WilliamFleming replies on May 23, 2019:
@St-Sinner They are composed of people, and those people have rights collectively. Nobody thinks that a corporation is a person but there is a very long legal tradition that corporations be treated the same as if they were individuals. Is there something immoral or wrong about that? If so what? Do you suggest that corporations are bad and should be outlawed?
Tribalism: An exploration of the mechanisms that drive tribalism - and that offer a way out of it.
callmedubious comments on May 22, 2019:
tribalism is, imo, responsible for the ardent, strident supporters of global warming who have reached the point that any scientist who raises the possibility that human caused CO2 might not be totally responsible for the changes in the climate is considered a climate change denier.
WilliamFleming replies on May 23, 2019:
Sir! How dare you post such a heretical response on a nice forum like this one? You need to get down on your knees, repent of your sinful thoughts and affirm belief in the true and correct word of the UN. Failure to do so will result in your burning forever in a hell of global warming.
callmedubious comments on May 22, 2019:
tribalism is, imo, responsible for the ardent, strident supporters of global warming who have reached the point that any scientist who raises the possibility that human caused CO2 might not be totally responsible for the changes in the climate is considered a climate change denier.
WilliamFleming replies on May 23, 2019:
Sir! How dare you post such a heretical response on a nice forum like this one? You need to get down on your knees, repent of your sinful thoughts and affirm belief in the true and correct word of the UN. Failure to do so will result in your burning forever in a hell of global warming.
Tribalism: An exploration of the mechanisms that drive tribalism - and that offer a way out of it.
bobwjr comments on May 22, 2019:
This is a great illustration explains why seemingly intelligent people act against their own welfare and further explains trumps supporters
WilliamFleming replies on May 23, 2019:
@VictoriaNotes I’m not far away, just over here in Alabama, and I grew up as a Baptist, just like you. My impression is that the word “evangelical” has been redefined and brought to the fore by the liberal national news media as a way of dividing and scapegoating. They don’t seem to understand conservatives, and instead of analyzing the issues with open minds they seem to be groping for explanations that will confirm their biases.
Like most of the Midwest, the South is politically conservative. The South was settled primarily by Protestants and hasn’t had much immigration. We are not conservative because of Protestantism and we are not Protestant because of conservatism. Probably over half the population never goes to church but they vote overwhelmingly for conservatives. And you must be aware of the liberal resolutions passed by the Southern Baptist Convention in recent years. This indicates that the majority of church members have liberal opinions on many issues.
What I don’t like about that first article is that progressives are described as people of great empathy who care deeply about the plights of the less fortunate, while conservatives are defined as people with a desire for tyrannical paternalistic leadership. Baloney!
What about the issues? There’s plenty of room for compromise and common ground on the actual issues but as long as we are focused on demonizing, name-calling, and engaging in moral grandstanding we’ll get nowhere.
In any event, you have made a great post, very stimulating. Keep up the good work.
bobwjr comments on May 22, 2019:
This is a great illustration explains why seemingly intelligent people act against their own welfare and further explains trumps supporters
WilliamFleming replies on May 23, 2019:
@VictoriaNotes I’m not far away, just over here in Alabama, and I grew up as a Baptist, just like you. My impression is that the word “evangelical” has been redefined and brought to the fore by the liberal national news media as a way of dividing and scapegoating. They don’t seem to understand conservatives, and instead of analyzing the issues with open minds they seem to be groping for explanations that will confirm their biases.
Like most of the Midwest, the South is politically conservative. The South was settled primarily by Protestants and hasn’t had much immigration. We are not conservative because of Protestantism and we are not Protestant because of conservatism. Probably over half the population never goes to church but they vote overwhelmingly for conservatives. And you must be aware of the liberal resolutions passed by the Southern Baptist Convention in recent years. This indicates that the majority of church members have liberal opinions on many issues.
What I don’t like about that first article is that progressives are described as people of great empathy who care deeply about the plights of the less fortunate, while conservatives are defined as people with a desire for tyrannical paternalistic leadership. Baloney!
What about the issues? There’s plenty of room for compromise and common ground on the actual issues but as long as we are focused on demonizing, name-calling, and engaging in moral grandstanding we’ll get nowhere.
In any event, you have made a great post, very stimulating. Keep up the good work.
Tribalism: An exploration of the mechanisms that drive tribalism - and that offer a way out of it.
bobwjr comments on May 22, 2019:
This is a great illustration explains why seemingly intelligent people act against their own welfare and further explains trumps supporters
WilliamFleming replies on May 22, 2019:
@VictoriaNotes I was not asking why Trump won in the primaries. Neither of your links address the points I was making.
The insinuation in bobwir’s remark is that Trump’s support can be understood as blind adherence to tribalism. Some people do vote along party lines in the final election, and that can certainly be considered tribalism for either party. Obviously tribalism can not explain Trump’s success in the primaries any more than it can explain Clinton’s.
And your links don’t address the blatant tribalism exhibited by people who refuse to accept the outcome of the election.
With that first article I strongly disagree. It is obviously very biased and is an amateurish attempt to psychoanalyze without presenting any arguments regarding political issues. The second is not biased but I am not going to read page after page of psychobabble. I would read thoughtful commentary that actually addresses the political and social issues.
The purpose of the video as I understand it is to advise us on how to move past tribalism and become more unified by finding common ground. The first step is to open your eyes to tribalistic thinking in your own group—not just in the “others”. And to get anywhere we need to stop name-calling and stop dismissing the opinions of others as being of no value.
bobwjr comments on May 22, 2019:
This is a great illustration explains why seemingly intelligent people act against their own welfare and further explains trumps supporters
WilliamFleming replies on May 22, 2019:
@VictoriaNotes I was not asking why Trump won in the primaries. Neither of your links address the points I was making.
The insinuation in bobwir’s remark is that Trump’s support can be understood as blind adherence to tribalism. Some people do vote along party lines in the final election, and that can certainly be considered tribalism for either party. Obviously tribalism can not explain Trump’s success in the primaries any more than it can explain Clinton’s.
And your links don’t address the blatant tribalism exhibited by people who refuse to accept the outcome of the election.
With that first article I strongly disagree. It is obviously very biased and is an amateurish attempt to psychoanalyze without presenting any arguments regarding political issues. The second is not biased but I am not going to read page after page of psychobabble. I would read thoughtful commentary that actually addresses the political and social issues.
The purpose of the video as I understand it is to advise us on how to move past tribalism and become more unified by finding common ground. The first step is to open your eyes to tribalistic thinking in your own group—not just in the “others”. And to get anywhere we need to stop name-calling and stop dismissing the opinions of others as being of no value.
Tribalism: An exploration of the mechanisms that drive tribalism - and that offer a way out of it.
bobwjr comments on May 22, 2019:
This is a great illustration explains why seemingly intelligent people act against their own welfare and further explains trumps supporters
WilliamFleming replies on May 22, 2019:
It might explain why people on either side voted along party lines. It would not explain why Trump won in the primaries.
It would explain why some people refuse to accept Trump as president even though he won the election.
bobwjr comments on May 22, 2019:
This is a great illustration explains why seemingly intelligent people act against their own welfare and further explains trumps supporters
WilliamFleming replies on May 22, 2019:
It might explain why people on either side voted along party lines. It would not explain why Trump won in the primaries.
It would explain why some people refuse to accept Trump as president even though he won the election.
Texas is about to get a ‘Save Chick-fil-A’ law that legalizes anti-LGBTQ discrimination / LGBTQ ...
WilliamFleming comments on May 21, 2019:
So San Antonio refused to allow Chick-fil-A at the airport because of a donation they made to a cause with which they are in disagreement. That sounds pretty shaky to me. Maybe the new law is needed.
I recall that Obama was opposed to gay marriage on his first run for office. Should anyone who ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 21, 2019:
@Katsarecool Chick-fil-A announced years ago that they would not discriminate in serving or hiring, and they stopped donating money to certain groups, so they did evolve, They announced that from then on they were strictly about food and had no interest in politics, yet the shrill screaming continues to this day, and company profits soar higher and higher with each attack. What a circus!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chick-fil-A_same-sex_marriage_controversy
WilliamFleming comments on May 21, 2019:
So San Antonio refused to allow Chick-fil-A at the airport because of a donation they made to a cause with which they are in disagreement. That sounds pretty shaky to me. Maybe the new law is needed.
I recall that Obama was opposed to gay marriage on his first run for office. Should anyone who ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 21, 2019:
@Katsarecool Chick-fil-A announced years ago that they would not discriminate in serving or hiring, and they stopped donating money to certain groups, so they did evolve, They announced that from then on they were strictly about food and had no interest in politics, yet the shrill screaming continues to this day, and company profits soar higher and higher with each attack. What a circus!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chick-fil-A_same-sex_marriage_controversy
Texas is about to get a ‘Save Chick-fil-A’ law that legalizes anti-LGBTQ discrimination / LGBTQ ...
Katsarecool comments on May 21, 2019:
Close the place down! Ive been boycotting since 2005. My family refuses to eat there too. There really isnt anyplace for hate in our society.
WilliamFleming replies on May 21, 2019:
You sound downright hateful.
Katsarecool comments on May 21, 2019:
Close the place down! Ive been boycotting since 2005. My family refuses to eat there too. There really isnt anyplace for hate in our society.
WilliamFleming replies on May 21, 2019:
You sound downright hateful.
Brother Jones, an old church member and deacon was very ill and in the hospital.
Cast1es comments on May 21, 2019:
That's going to weigh his concious for a long time .
WilliamFleming replies on May 21, 2019:
Don’t take it so seriously! It’s a joke. :-)
Cast1es comments on May 21, 2019:
That's going to weigh his concious for a long time .
WilliamFleming replies on May 21, 2019:
Don’t take it so seriously! It’s a joke. :-)
Is the question of abortion of public interest?
Neenz comments on May 21, 2019:
Im actually and seriously interested to hear what anti abortionists think about it from a non religious perspective. How is their stance not rooted in religion
WilliamFleming replies on May 21, 2019:
Their stance is rooted in fake religion. Genuinely religious people are not very concerned about bodies, viewing them as passing illusions.
Neenz comments on May 21, 2019:
Im actually and seriously interested to hear what anti abortionists think about it from a non religious perspective. How is their stance not rooted in religion
WilliamFleming replies on May 21, 2019:
Their stance is rooted in fake religion. Genuinely religious people are not very concerned about bodies, viewing them as passing illusions.
Who is actually 'open-minded'?
cimoore34 comments on May 20, 2019:
I see where you want to go, but to me it seems your closing statement is closed minded.
For me, being open minded means that you assess ideas based on their merits/evidence. You may discount an idea because there isn't sufficient evidence to change your point of view. You may accept the idea in ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 21, 2019:
@Katsarecool I’ve seen two UFO’s, one way back in the fifties. It was a white orb, half the diameter of the moon, hovering in the distance. I would have thought it to be a ballon, but it turned on edge, becoming a horizontal disk. Then it assumed a steep angle and flew away at high speed. I’ve no idea what it was.
A few years ago I saw a white aircraft with no wings and it was totally silent, a couple of thousand feet high. It must have been some sort of experimental craft from Eglin AFB I’m guessing.
cimoore34 comments on May 20, 2019:
I see where you want to go, but to me it seems your closing statement is closed minded.
For me, being open minded means that you assess ideas based on their merits/evidence. You may discount an idea because there isn't sufficient evidence to change your point of view. You may accept the idea in ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 21, 2019:
@Katsarecool I’ve seen two UFO’s, one way back in the fifties. It was a white orb, half the diameter of the moon, hovering in the distance. I would have thought it to be a ballon, but it turned on edge, becoming a horizontal disk. Then it assumed a steep angle and flew away at high speed. I’ve no idea what it was.
A few years ago I saw a white aircraft with no wings and it was totally silent, a couple of thousand feet high. It must have been some sort of experimental craft from Eglin AFB I’m guessing.
Why do people keep complaining even if things improve?
JackPedigo comments on May 20, 2019:
There are always those that are in the "don't worry, be happy" camp. Unfortunately, things are not getting better for very many and that number is going up. Sure, if one considers material comforts things have advanced beyond our wildest dreams. But the really big picture item like the crash of the ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 20, 2019:
Don’t worry. Be happy—the earth will someday be engulfed by the sun.
JackPedigo comments on May 20, 2019:
There are always those that are in the "don't worry, be happy" camp. Unfortunately, things are not getting better for very many and that number is going up. Sure, if one considers material comforts things have advanced beyond our wildest dreams. But the really big picture item like the crash of the ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 20, 2019:
Don’t worry. Be happy—the earth will someday be engulfed by the sun.
Do you agree with the statement that humans are just another twig in the tree of life?
WilliamFleming comments on May 20, 2019:
IMO the tree model is a poor one to use when speaking of the procession of life. Life is more like a rope, with each fiber of the rope representing the lifetime of a single organism. I agree that we are not at the pinnacle of evolution—we are just somewhere along the rope. A single fiber or a ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 20, 2019:
@LetzGetReal Great article, and very helpful!
The last part is intriguing. Who is the director who is making those decisions? Hmm...
WilliamFleming comments on May 20, 2019:
IMO the tree model is a poor one to use when speaking of the procession of life. Life is more like a rope, with each fiber of the rope representing the lifetime of a single organism. I agree that we are not at the pinnacle of evolution—we are just somewhere along the rope. A single fiber or a ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 20, 2019:
@LetzGetReal Great article, and very helpful!
The last part is intriguing. Who is the director who is making those decisions? Hmm...
Alabama...really? Your abortion law is just another reason I hate religion.
WilliamFleming comments on May 18, 2019:
It is interesting that when it comes to certain issues, liberals become libertarians, arguing that government has no right to meddle in private affairs.
Welcome to the fold guys!
WilliamFleming replies on May 20, 2019:
@A2Jennifer Good points.
WilliamFleming comments on May 18, 2019:
It is interesting that when it comes to certain issues, liberals become libertarians, arguing that government has no right to meddle in private affairs.
Welcome to the fold guys!
WilliamFleming replies on May 20, 2019:
@A2Jennifer Good points.
if your mother was on her deathbed and she begged you to pray with her.
WilliamFleming comments on May 18, 2019:
I would pray but no, I won’t lie again. I did that once.
WilliamFleming replies on May 19, 2019:
@m16566 I was about 12 or 14 years old and at a revival service. (I come from a long line of Baptists) In my heart I didn’t believe the Christian message, but I allowed this sexy girl to talk me into going forward and saying that I had “accepted Christ”. It gave me a cheap feeling and I never got anything out of it—not even a kiss. :-(
I lived the lie throughout adolescence but in college I got up the gumption to put my foot down. I’m still not an atheist BTW. There are god-like concepts that intrigue me greatly. I don’t actually “believe” those concepts. For me it’s not about belief or disbelief, rather it’s about reverence, and awe of the overwhelming mystery of existence as a consciously aware entity.
WilliamFleming comments on May 18, 2019:
I would pray but no, I won’t lie again. I did that once.
WilliamFleming replies on May 19, 2019:
@m16566 I was about 12 or 14 years old and at a revival service. (I come from a long line of Baptists) In my heart I didn’t believe the Christian message, but I allowed this sexy girl to talk me into going forward and saying that I had “accepted Christ”. It gave me a cheap feeling and I never got anything out of it—not even a kiss. :-(
I lived the lie throughout adolescence but in college I got up the gumption to put my foot down. I’m still not an atheist BTW. There are god-like concepts that intrigue me greatly. I don’t actually “believe” those concepts. For me it’s not about belief or disbelief, rather it’s about reverence, and awe of the overwhelming mystery of existence as a consciously aware entity.
An interesting comparison of the US Capitalist system with the Norwegian Social Democratic system.
WilliamFleming comments on May 18, 2019:
Norway, under state capitalism is deeply committed to free market economics. They are wealthy because of their oil and because they prudently saved and invested their money. Norway is one of the world’s largest stockholders, with massive investments around the globe, all managed for the benefit of...
WilliamFleming replies on May 19, 2019:
@ToolGuy The sanctions began under the Obama administration sir. And it’s not just the US doing the sanctioning—the EU and Canada are on board.
And here’s this from Wikipedia: “In 2018, the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) documented that "information gathered indicates that the socioeconomic crisis had been unfolding for several years" before international sanctions,[16]”
I am not opposed to well-managed social programs, but as a realist I think it is important to understand how those programs are to be financed, and to understand true wealth and how it is created.
WilliamFleming comments on May 18, 2019:
Norway, under state capitalism is deeply committed to free market economics. They are wealthy because of their oil and because they prudently saved and invested their money. Norway is one of the world’s largest stockholders, with massive investments around the globe, all managed for the benefit of...
WilliamFleming replies on May 19, 2019:
@ToolGuy The sanctions began under the Obama administration sir. And it’s not just the US doing the sanctioning—the EU and Canada are on board.
And here’s this from Wikipedia: “In 2018, the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) documented that "information gathered indicates that the socioeconomic crisis had been unfolding for several years" before international sanctions,[16]”
I am not opposed to well-managed social programs, but as a realist I think it is important to understand how those programs are to be financed, and to understand true wealth and how it is created.
An interesting comparison of the US Capitalist system with the Norwegian Social Democratic system.
WilliamFleming comments on May 18, 2019:
Norway, under state capitalism is deeply committed to free market economics. They are wealthy because of their oil and because they prudently saved and invested their money. Norway is one of the world’s largest stockholders, with massive investments around the globe, all managed for the benefit of...
WilliamFleming replies on May 19, 2019:
@ToolGuy The US did not cause the problems of Venezuela. The problems were caused by wasteful spending on social programs. Venezuela has the world’s largest petroleum reserves. If they had saved and invested as did Norway they would be in fine fiddle. Here’s a thorough analysis, and there’s not a word about US interference.
https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2017/05/venezuela-worst-economic-crisis-wrong-170501063130120.html
WilliamFleming comments on May 18, 2019:
Norway, under state capitalism is deeply committed to free market economics. They are wealthy because of their oil and because they prudently saved and invested their money. Norway is one of the world’s largest stockholders, with massive investments around the globe, all managed for the benefit of...
WilliamFleming replies on May 19, 2019:
@ToolGuy The US did not cause the problems of Venezuela. The problems were caused by wasteful spending on social programs. Venezuela has the world’s largest petroleum reserves. If they had saved and invested as did Norway they would be in fine fiddle. Here’s a thorough analysis, and there’s not a word about US interference.
https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2017/05/venezuela-worst-economic-crisis-wrong-170501063130120.html
An interesting comparison of the US Capitalist system with the Norwegian Social Democratic system.
WilliamFleming comments on May 18, 2019:
Norway, under state capitalism is deeply committed to free market economics. They are wealthy because of their oil and because they prudently saved and invested their money. Norway is one of the world’s largest stockholders, with massive investments around the globe, all managed for the benefit of...
WilliamFleming replies on May 19, 2019:
@ToolGuy “A 2019 survey of leading economists by the University of Chicago Booth's Initiative on Global Markets showed a unanimous rejection of assertions attributed to modern monetary theory in the survey:”
(Wikipedia) Further on Wikipedia learn that in that study 97% of economists polled reject MMT theories and 0% endorsed those theories.
WilliamFleming comments on May 18, 2019:
Norway, under state capitalism is deeply committed to free market economics. They are wealthy because of their oil and because they prudently saved and invested their money. Norway is one of the world’s largest stockholders, with massive investments around the globe, all managed for the benefit of...
WilliamFleming replies on May 19, 2019:
@ToolGuy “A 2019 survey of leading economists by the University of Chicago Booth's Initiative on Global Markets showed a unanimous rejection of assertions attributed to modern monetary theory in the survey:”
(Wikipedia) Further on Wikipedia learn that in that study 97% of economists polled reject MMT theories and 0% endorsed those theories.
Alabama...really? Your abortion law is just another reason I hate religion.
WilliamFleming comments on May 18, 2019:
It is interesting that when it comes to certain issues, liberals become libertarians, arguing that government has no right to meddle in private affairs.
Welcome to the fold guys!
WilliamFleming replies on May 19, 2019:
@A2Jennifer I am in full agreement.
What about vaccinations and medication? In som cases people are forced to take psychiatric drugs.
WilliamFleming comments on May 18, 2019:
It is interesting that when it comes to certain issues, liberals become libertarians, arguing that government has no right to meddle in private affairs.
Welcome to the fold guys!
WilliamFleming replies on May 19, 2019:
@A2Jennifer I am in full agreement.
What about vaccinations and medication? In som cases people are forced to take psychiatric drugs.
Some folks wonder where all this hate and discontent comes from.
WilliamFleming comments on May 18, 2019:
A Christian theocracy is not going to happen in this country. There is next to zero support for such an idea. The guy is an idiot.
WilliamFleming replies on May 19, 2019:
@evidentialist You are right about the tax part, but I haven’t seen any polls showing that a large portion of the fundamentalist evangelical community favor theocratic government. Please provide links to such polls. I have never in my life heard such a thing said in person and I grew up in a Baptist Church.
So far as federal income tax, there’s really no profit to tax. Local property taxes maybe. I would think that any non-profit entity would not have to pay property tax, but that would be up to local government.
WilliamFleming comments on May 18, 2019:
A Christian theocracy is not going to happen in this country. There is next to zero support for such an idea. The guy is an idiot.
WilliamFleming replies on May 19, 2019:
@evidentialist You are right about the tax part, but I haven’t seen any polls showing that a large portion of the fundamentalist evangelical community favor theocratic government. Please provide links to such polls. I have never in my life heard such a thing said in person and I grew up in a Baptist Church.
So far as federal income tax, there’s really no profit to tax. Local property taxes maybe. I would think that any non-profit entity would not have to pay property tax, but that would be up to local government.
Some folks wonder where all this hate and discontent comes from.
WilliamFleming comments on May 18, 2019:
A Christian theocracy is not going to happen in this country. There is next to zero support for such an idea. The guy is an idiot.
WilliamFleming replies on May 18, 2019:
@btroje it seems far-fetched and impossible to me. The largest religious organization in Alabama is probably the Southern Baptist Convention which continually over the years has reaffirmed its commitment to the principles of the separation of church and state. Baptists in Danbury Connecticut in fact were instrumental in having that separation enshrined in the constitution.
http://www.sbc.net/resolutions/943
I guess it feels good to raise the alarm, but for me I’ll wait for real danger before I get excited about this theocracy business.
WilliamFleming comments on May 18, 2019:
A Christian theocracy is not going to happen in this country. There is next to zero support for such an idea. The guy is an idiot.
WilliamFleming replies on May 18, 2019:
@btroje it seems far-fetched and impossible to me. The largest religious organization in Alabama is probably the Southern Baptist Convention which continually over the years has reaffirmed its commitment to the principles of the separation of church and state. Baptists in Danbury Connecticut in fact were instrumental in having that separation enshrined in the constitution.
http://www.sbc.net/resolutions/943
I guess it feels good to raise the alarm, but for me I’ll wait for real danger before I get excited about this theocracy business.
An interesting comparison of the US Capitalist system with the Norwegian Social Democratic system.
WilliamFleming comments on May 18, 2019:
Norway, under state capitalism is deeply committed to free market economics. They are wealthy because of their oil and because they prudently saved and invested their money. Norway is one of the world’s largest stockholders, with massive investments around the globe, all managed for the benefit of...
WilliamFleming replies on May 18, 2019:
@ToolGuy What you should compare is Venezuela under socialism with Norway under State Capitalism. Which is better off, Norway with massive government assets or Venezuela with massive government debt?
Yes, debt is important and necessary to the economy. Debt is not necessary for government. Government is not the economy—government is a drag on the economy—a parasite. Some government functions are necessary, such as reasonable regulations, justice, defense, etc., but government does not run the economy.
WilliamFleming comments on May 18, 2019:
Norway, under state capitalism is deeply committed to free market economics. They are wealthy because of their oil and because they prudently saved and invested their money. Norway is one of the world’s largest stockholders, with massive investments around the globe, all managed for the benefit of...
WilliamFleming replies on May 18, 2019:
@ToolGuy What you should compare is Venezuela under socialism with Norway under State Capitalism. Which is better off, Norway with massive government assets or Venezuela with massive government debt?
Yes, debt is important and necessary to the economy. Debt is not necessary for government. Government is not the economy—government is a drag on the economy—a parasite. Some government functions are necessary, such as reasonable regulations, justice, defense, etc., but government does not run the economy.
An interesting comparison of the US Capitalist system with the Norwegian Social Democratic system.
WilliamFleming comments on May 18, 2019:
Norway, under state capitalism is deeply committed to free market economics. They are wealthy because of their oil and because they prudently saved and invested their money. Norway is one of the world’s largest stockholders, with massive investments around the globe, all managed for the benefit of...
WilliamFleming replies on May 18, 2019:
@ToolGuy The debt is a great boon to the bond holders but not to the taxpayers or the citizens in general. The debt is unnecessary! Why do we need to borrow? By delaying payment whatever you buy costs up to twice as much. The population constitutes a huge bank with massive assets. We can pay as we go.
Sure, there might be some trouble in adjusting to sane policies, but long term we could potentially be like Norway. You can not borrow your way into prosperity. Real wealth has to be created.
WilliamFleming comments on May 18, 2019:
Norway, under state capitalism is deeply committed to free market economics. They are wealthy because of their oil and because they prudently saved and invested their money. Norway is one of the world’s largest stockholders, with massive investments around the globe, all managed for the benefit of...
WilliamFleming replies on May 18, 2019:
@ToolGuy The debt is a great boon to the bond holders but not to the taxpayers or the citizens in general. The debt is unnecessary! Why do we need to borrow? By delaying payment whatever you buy costs up to twice as much. The population constitutes a huge bank with massive assets. We can pay as we go.
Sure, there might be some trouble in adjusting to sane policies, but long term we could potentially be like Norway. You can not borrow your way into prosperity. Real wealth has to be created.
Some folks wonder where all this hate and discontent comes from.
WilliamFleming comments on May 18, 2019:
A Christian theocracy is not going to happen in this country. There is next to zero support for such an idea. The guy is an idiot.
WilliamFleming replies on May 18, 2019:
@evidentialist, @Triphid Why do you think people would do nothing? If the democratic process were circumvented there would be a massive uprising.
WilliamFleming comments on May 18, 2019:
A Christian theocracy is not going to happen in this country. There is next to zero support for such an idea. The guy is an idiot.
WilliamFleming replies on May 18, 2019:
@evidentialist, @Triphid Why do you think people would do nothing? If the democratic process were circumvented there would be a massive uprising.
Some folks wonder where all this hate and discontent comes from.
WilliamFleming comments on May 18, 2019:
A Christian theocracy is not going to happen in this country. There is next to zero support for such an idea. The guy is an idiot.
WilliamFleming replies on May 18, 2019:
@evidentialist Just about every church is opposed to theocracy. He’s just one person.
WilliamFleming comments on May 18, 2019:
A Christian theocracy is not going to happen in this country. There is next to zero support for such an idea. The guy is an idiot.
WilliamFleming replies on May 18, 2019:
@evidentialist Just about every church is opposed to theocracy. He’s just one person.
Artificial intelligence is incompatible with religion.
WilliamFleming comments on May 17, 2019:
For most of my life I’ve been hearing that consciously aware computers are just around the corner. Just a few software tweaks and computers will sit there and be aware of their existence. It hasn’t happened yet and IMO it’s never going to happen. To believe such a thing is no better than a ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 18, 2019:
@Happy_Killbot I also don’t think that brains are consciously aware. I lean toward thinking that Universal Consciousness uses bodies.
You could of course be right, but my money is on no aware computers. I guess we’ll just have to wait and see what develops. Anyway, AI is an exciting field.
I’m done. Enjoy your weekend.
WilliamFleming comments on May 17, 2019:
For most of my life I’ve been hearing that consciously aware computers are just around the corner. Just a few software tweaks and computers will sit there and be aware of their existence. It hasn’t happened yet and IMO it’s never going to happen. To believe such a thing is no better than a ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 18, 2019:
@Happy_Killbot I also don’t think that brains are consciously aware. I lean toward thinking that Universal Consciousness uses bodies.
You could of course be right, but my money is on no aware computers. I guess we’ll just have to wait and see what develops. Anyway, AI is an exciting field.
I’m done. Enjoy your weekend.
At our cores, everyone has a set of morals, but I think most people say they “are moral” or ...
WilliamFleming comments on May 18, 2019:
“Friendly” would be a better term. Friendly people don’t try to harm others, and they both give and receive. Moral sounds like a mushroom and suggests self-righteousness.
WilliamFleming replies on May 18, 2019:
@Cast1es OK, I’ll change it to sincere long-term friendliness.
WilliamFleming comments on May 18, 2019:
“Friendly” would be a better term. Friendly people don’t try to harm others, and they both give and receive. Moral sounds like a mushroom and suggests self-righteousness.
WilliamFleming replies on May 18, 2019:
@Cast1es OK, I’ll change it to sincere long-term friendliness.
Artificial intelligence is incompatible with religion.
WilliamFleming comments on May 17, 2019:
For most of my life I’ve been hearing that consciously aware computers are just around the corner. Just a few software tweaks and computers will sit there and be aware of their existence. It hasn’t happened yet and IMO it’s never going to happen. To believe such a thing is no better than a ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 18, 2019:
@Happy_Killbot Whatever consciousness is created through programming is nothing but mechanistic, rote processing and has notation do with conscious awareness. Computers are not aware.
WilliamFleming comments on May 17, 2019:
For most of my life I’ve been hearing that consciously aware computers are just around the corner. Just a few software tweaks and computers will sit there and be aware of their existence. It hasn’t happened yet and IMO it’s never going to happen. To believe such a thing is no better than a ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 18, 2019:
@Happy_Killbot Whatever consciousness is created through programming is nothing but mechanistic, rote processing and has notation do with conscious awareness. Computers are not aware.
Artificial intelligence is incompatible with religion.
WilliamFleming comments on May 17, 2019:
For most of my life I’ve been hearing that consciously aware computers are just around the corner. Just a few software tweaks and computers will sit there and be aware of their existence. It hasn’t happened yet and IMO it’s never going to happen. To believe such a thing is no better than a ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 18, 2019:
@Happy_Killbot Sentience is nothing but the reception and processing of sensory input. Robotic systems can already do that.
To be consciously aware of one’s existence is something that is profoundly mysterious and inexplicable. It’s that “woo” stuff that you don’t like.
WilliamFleming comments on May 17, 2019:
For most of my life I’ve been hearing that consciously aware computers are just around the corner. Just a few software tweaks and computers will sit there and be aware of their existence. It hasn’t happened yet and IMO it’s never going to happen. To believe such a thing is no better than a ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 18, 2019:
@Happy_Killbot Sentience is nothing but the reception and processing of sensory input. Robotic systems can already do that.
To be consciously aware of one’s existence is something that is profoundly mysterious and inexplicable. It’s that “woo” stuff that you don’t like.
Artificial intelligence is incompatible with religion.
WilliamFleming comments on May 17, 2019:
For most of my life I’ve been hearing that consciously aware computers are just around the corner. Just a few software tweaks and computers will sit there and be aware of their existence. It hasn’t happened yet and IMO it’s never going to happen. To believe such a thing is no better than a ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 17, 2019:
@Happy_Killbot I think the sun is supposed to exist only in a suspended or virtual state until it is observed. Once the sun’s light is observed it collapses into photons. According to quantum gravity theory there’s no such thing as time. Particles of matter are not “things”, rather they are interactions between covariant quantum fields. Besides that, space is nothing like what we think. So our idea of the sun existing in space and time with the light streaming toward us—that is nothing but an illusory human mind thing. Ultimate Reality is outside our perception and understanding.
The same enigma arises with the double slit experiment. If photons are observed with detectors they manifest as particles every time. Leave the same detectors in place but don’t look at them and the photons manifest as waves.
Human exceptionalism need not come into play under the concept of universal consciousness. The universe is the observer. Our sense of being individuals made out of bodies is illusion. Our essence is consciousness and it’s not my or your consciousness—it’s just consciousness period.
I realize that this does open up the possibility that a computer might exhibit consciousness. If it ever does though, that consciousness will not be somehow generated through the opening and closing of switches. The consciousness rather will be universal consciousness expressing itself electronically, and it will control those switches.
I’ve heard of blind people who are able to create mental pictures of their surroundings by hearing echos. I think it is fairly well accepted that the reality we experience is created by our own imagination and is merely symbolic. If the woman saw red for the first time I suppose it would be her own private red—a symbol of her choosing.
There’s a lot of difference between qualia and deep conscious awareness. IMO the two aren’t related at all. I have no doubt that robots can have sentience. Awareness though? I lean toward thinking no.
Oddly I have written a short novel called “The Staggering Implications of the Mystery of Existence”, available on the Kindle Store which explores these questions. I don’t recommend it for you because it contains some strong woo. :-(
WilliamFleming comments on May 17, 2019:
For most of my life I’ve been hearing that consciously aware computers are just around the corner. Just a few software tweaks and computers will sit there and be aware of their existence. It hasn’t happened yet and IMO it’s never going to happen. To believe such a thing is no better than a ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 17, 2019:
@Happy_Killbot I think the sun is supposed to exist only in a suspended or virtual state until it is observed. Once the sun’s light is observed it collapses into photons. According to quantum gravity theory there’s no such thing as time. Particles of matter are not “things”, rather they are interactions between covariant quantum fields. Besides that, space is nothing like what we think. So our idea of the sun existing in space and time with the light streaming toward us—that is nothing but an illusory human mind thing. Ultimate Reality is outside our perception and understanding.
The same enigma arises with the double slit experiment. If photons are observed with detectors they manifest as particles every time. Leave the same detectors in place but don’t look at them and the photons manifest as waves.
Human exceptionalism need not come into play under the concept of universal consciousness. The universe is the observer. Our sense of being individuals made out of bodies is illusion. Our essence is consciousness and it’s not my or your consciousness—it’s just consciousness period.
I realize that this does open up the possibility that a computer might exhibit consciousness. If it ever does though, that consciousness will not be somehow generated through the opening and closing of switches. The consciousness rather will be universal consciousness expressing itself electronically, and it will control those switches.
I’ve heard of blind people who are able to create mental pictures of their surroundings by hearing echos. I think it is fairly well accepted that the reality we experience is created by our own imagination and is merely symbolic. If the woman saw red for the first time I suppose it would be her own private red—a symbol of her choosing.
There’s a lot of difference between qualia and deep conscious awareness. IMO the two aren’t related at all. I have no doubt that robots can have sentience. Awareness though? I lean toward thinking no.
Oddly I have written a short novel called “The Staggering Implications of the Mystery of Existence”, available on the Kindle Store which explores these questions. I don’t recommend it for you because it contains some strong woo. :-(
Artificial intelligence is incompatible with religion.
WilliamFleming comments on May 17, 2019:
For most of my life I’ve been hearing that consciously aware computers are just around the corner. Just a few software tweaks and computers will sit there and be aware of their existence. It hasn’t happened yet and IMO it’s never going to happen. To believe such a thing is no better than a ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 17, 2019:
@Happy_Killbot That is not what quantum physicists say. They say that consciousness is primary and that reality arises from consciousness.
https://uncommondescent.com/physics/what-great-physicists-have-said-about-immateriality-and-consciousness/
WilliamFleming comments on May 17, 2019:
For most of my life I’ve been hearing that consciously aware computers are just around the corner. Just a few software tweaks and computers will sit there and be aware of their existence. It hasn’t happened yet and IMO it’s never going to happen. To believe such a thing is no better than a ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 17, 2019:
@Happy_Killbot That is not what quantum physicists say. They say that consciousness is primary and that reality arises from consciousness.
https://uncommondescent.com/physics/what-great-physicists-have-said-about-immateriality-and-consciousness/
No religion = Empathetic Increase
[patheos.com]
Deiter comments on May 17, 2019:
Well, duh! If your guiding belief system is based on exclusion, bigotry, intolerance and vindictive disproportionate punishments, how could *anyone* think this would be a path to *increased* empathy and compassion?
WilliamFleming replies on May 17, 2019:
And which religions are based on such things? I must have missed it.
Deiter comments on May 17, 2019:
Well, duh! If your guiding belief system is based on exclusion, bigotry, intolerance and vindictive disproportionate punishments, how could *anyone* think this would be a path to *increased* empathy and compassion?
WilliamFleming replies on May 17, 2019:
And which religions are based on such things? I must have missed it.
I know the people of Alabama pretty well; I've spent most of my life here.
thinktwice comments on May 16, 2019:
If what you say is true, then why don't they accept the comparison to Muslim law that is very similar in their culture and way of thinking when it comes to women...or do they?
Is your cultural assessment true of black women as well? Alabama has one of the highest abortion rates among black ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 17, 2019:
@thinktwice yep, you nailed it. It’s ego driven posturing designed to attract attention to themselves. I’m betting that nobody is ever prosecuted for performing an abortion in Alabama. I could be wrong.
thinktwice comments on May 16, 2019:
If what you say is true, then why don't they accept the comparison to Muslim law that is very similar in their culture and way of thinking when it comes to women...or do they?
Is your cultural assessment true of black women as well? Alabama has one of the highest abortion rates among black ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 17, 2019:
@thinktwice yep, you nailed it. It’s ego driven posturing designed to attract attention to themselves. I’m betting that nobody is ever prosecuted for performing an abortion in Alabama. I could be wrong.
We all hold some assumptions to be true and they lie too deep to be proved; one could call them ...
MsDemeanour comments on May 17, 2019:
I tried to reply to @WilliamFlemming but for some reason my 'reply' button isn't working. What I want to say is that 'assumptions' arent good enough to believe in. By all means pose an hypothesis and then experiment to see if your hypothesis holds weight. If we as atheists, aren't practicing ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 17, 2019:
I don’t think of an assumption as a belief. It is, as you say, a hypothesis that we use when thinking and reasoning. IMO no one should actually have any beliefs, because we are all basically ignorant. And we should be aware of our assumptions and be ready to change them.
I couldn’t respond or upvote yesterday but today I can. It’s magic. :-)
Actually, as we speak, free market forces are on the verge of developing astounding new methods for generating carbon-free energy, methods spurned by bureaucrats thirty years ago. It is up to individuals to create wealth.
MsDemeanour comments on May 17, 2019:
I tried to reply to @WilliamFlemming but for some reason my 'reply' button isn't working. What I want to say is that 'assumptions' arent good enough to believe in. By all means pose an hypothesis and then experiment to see if your hypothesis holds weight. If we as atheists, aren't practicing ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 17, 2019:
I don’t think of an assumption as a belief. It is, as you say, a hypothesis that we use when thinking and reasoning. IMO no one should actually have any beliefs, because we are all basically ignorant. And we should be aware of our assumptions and be ready to change them.
I couldn’t respond or upvote yesterday but today I can. It’s magic. :-)
Actually, as we speak, free market forces are on the verge of developing astounding new methods for generating carbon-free energy, methods spurned by bureaucrats thirty years ago. It is up to individuals to create wealth.
Why are agnostics and atheists so hostile to my non-theistic belief of theological noncognitivism?
WilliamFleming comments on May 16, 2019:
I agree. God is not a “thing”—an object that needs a label. The word is only a symbol for the great unknown and unknowable Ultimate Reality.
If, upon hearing the word “God”, you think of some human-like entity in the clouds, or if you think of the mythical gods of old literature or ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 17, 2019:
@EdwinMcCravy The concept of ultimate reality arises in our minds when we realize that the world of our perceptions is illusory and that reality itself is beyond our immediate ken. This is not just wu, but has been a basic concept in science since the days of Faraday and Maxwell.
Because of incorrect associations I would prefer not to label ultimate reality as “God”. The Hindus call it Brahman, which resonates with me.
You are right in that there’s not much we can say about ultimate reality. It is however, more than just an empty label.
WilliamFleming comments on May 16, 2019:
I agree. God is not a “thing”—an object that needs a label. The word is only a symbol for the great unknown and unknowable Ultimate Reality.
If, upon hearing the word “God”, you think of some human-like entity in the clouds, or if you think of the mythical gods of old literature or ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 17, 2019:
@EdwinMcCravy The concept of ultimate reality arises in our minds when we realize that the world of our perceptions is illusory and that reality itself is beyond our immediate ken. This is not just wu, but has been a basic concept in science since the days of Faraday and Maxwell.
Because of incorrect associations I would prefer not to label ultimate reality as “God”. The Hindus call it Brahman, which resonates with me.
You are right in that there’s not much we can say about ultimate reality. It is however, more than just an empty label.
I know the people of Alabama pretty well; I've spent most of my life here.
sassygirl3869 comments on May 16, 2019:
They don't believe women should be in charge of their own bodies. I got pregnant at 42. Having one handicapped child I was warned I would have another. My own parents and sister wanted me to have an abortion. My decision not theirs. Alabama is a backward state with Rethuglican women who know nothing...
WilliamFleming replies on May 16, 2019:
How is it different for them than for women in all the other states that are outlawing abortion? There’s a bunch of them.
sassygirl3869 comments on May 16, 2019:
They don't believe women should be in charge of their own bodies. I got pregnant at 42. Having one handicapped child I was warned I would have another. My own parents and sister wanted me to have an abortion. My decision not theirs. Alabama is a backward state with Rethuglican women who know nothing...
WilliamFleming replies on May 16, 2019:
How is it different for them than for women in all the other states that are outlawing abortion? There’s a bunch of them.
I know the people of Alabama pretty well; I've spent most of my life here.
thinktwice comments on May 16, 2019:
If what you say is true, then why don't they accept the comparison to Muslim law that is very similar in their culture and way of thinking when it comes to women...or do they?
Is your cultural assessment true of black women as well? Alabama has one of the highest abortion rates among black ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 16, 2019:
Black women must be among the strongest, most assertive people in the world at least in personality.
Apparently a majority of people here oppose abortion. How is that any different than all the other places that have recently enacted anti-abortion laws? There are at least fourteen states that have either passed such laws or are considering such laws.
thinktwice comments on May 16, 2019:
If what you say is true, then why don't they accept the comparison to Muslim law that is very similar in their culture and way of thinking when it comes to women...or do they?
Is your cultural assessment true of black women as well? Alabama has one of the highest abortion rates among black ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 16, 2019:
Black women must be among the strongest, most assertive people in the world at least in personality.
Apparently a majority of people here oppose abortion. How is that any different than all the other places that have recently enacted anti-abortion laws? There are at least fourteen states that have either passed such laws or are considering such laws.
I know the people of Alabama pretty well; I've spent most of my life here.
1of5 comments on May 16, 2019:
You're just shifting the blame around, figured it'd be a couple weeks before someone was blaming women for this.
If they're such good people then WHY AREN'T THEY DOING ANYTHING TO STOP THIS?
WilliamFleming replies on May 16, 2019:
Because they oppose abortion.
1of5 comments on May 16, 2019:
You're just shifting the blame around, figured it'd be a couple weeks before someone was blaming women for this.
If they're such good people then WHY AREN'T THEY DOING ANYTHING TO STOP THIS?
WilliamFleming replies on May 16, 2019:
Because they oppose abortion.
Which Truth
LenHazell53 comments on May 16, 2019:
If you define "truth" as factual, then it is easy, you test it, by seeking evidence, or by proving consistent behaviour that can be predicted and duplicated.
From the results you can come to the conclusion something is likely true, something is false or that something is as yet unverified but not ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 16, 2019:
There are assertions that are both true and false, depending on the logical system within which they are analyzed. There are assertions that are neither true nor false—they might be meaningless or undefined. Also, within any system there are meaningful assertions that can not be proven—they are undecidable. That’s because every system is based on unproven assumptions.
There is only one thing that is known with absolute certainty, and that is that there is only one thing that is known with absolute certainty. You would like solid ground under you? How does it feel to want? Welcome to reality where all our knowledge amounts to nothing and the only logical state of mind is bewilderment.
LenHazell53 comments on May 16, 2019:
If you define "truth" as factual, then it is easy, you test it, by seeking evidence, or by proving consistent behaviour that can be predicted and duplicated.
From the results you can come to the conclusion something is likely true, something is false or that something is as yet unverified but not ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 16, 2019:
There are assertions that are both true and false, depending on the logical system within which they are analyzed. There are assertions that are neither true nor false—they might be meaningless or undefined. Also, within any system there are meaningful assertions that can not be proven—they are undecidable. That’s because every system is based on unproven assumptions.
There is only one thing that is known with absolute certainty, and that is that there is only one thing that is known with absolute certainty. You would like solid ground under you? How does it feel to want? Welcome to reality where all our knowledge amounts to nothing and the only logical state of mind is bewilderment.
Here’s the punishment for actual rapists in Alabama – ThinkProgress
Happy_Killbot comments on May 16, 2019:
I hate this issue because both sides have valid moral arguments, science can be made to support either side, and there is no wining only damage control. So screw all of it, I have a creative solution.
So, what this argument boils down to is a simple question: Should someone have the right to do ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 16, 2019:
Very good response! We should discuss the issue on its merits without resorting to name-calling.
You have expressed it nicely. How much freedom do individuals have in making decisions that affect other people?
Anyone should see that human bodies are a dime a dozen. There are plenty of them with more continually being produced. At what point is a fetus a person? What the heck is a person in the first place? Religious people should be the first to uphold the idea that we are not our bodies but something much more.
I see an organism as just an instrument, a robot for the use of conscious awareness. Conscious awareness likes to interact with the river of organisms, but the life or death of individuals is of little concern. We see natural disasters that wipe out bodies en masse, and of course the life of an individual is very brief in the first place. All that matters is the continuum of life, and that is something that manages its own self.
The decision as to whether and when to have children belongs solely to the parents, and especially to the mother. Politicians should keep their noses out. If a person doesn’t approve of abortion, then they don’t have to have one. After a baby is born and is being utilized by conscious awareness, then that body must be preserved and protected out of respect for its owner if possible, but until that time it is under the sole ownership and control of the mother.
Happy_Killbot comments on May 16, 2019:
I hate this issue because both sides have valid moral arguments, science can be made to support either side, and there is no wining only damage control. So screw all of it, I have a creative solution.
So, what this argument boils down to is a simple question: Should someone have the right to do ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 16, 2019:
Very good response! We should discuss the issue on its merits without resorting to name-calling.
You have expressed it nicely. How much freedom do individuals have in making decisions that affect other people?
Anyone should see that human bodies are a dime a dozen. There are plenty of them with more continually being produced. At what point is a fetus a person? What the heck is a person in the first place? Religious people should be the first to uphold the idea that we are not our bodies but something much more.
I see an organism as just an instrument, a robot for the use of conscious awareness. Conscious awareness likes to interact with the river of organisms, but the life or death of individuals is of little concern. We see natural disasters that wipe out bodies en masse, and of course the life of an individual is very brief in the first place. All that matters is the continuum of life, and that is something that manages its own self.
The decision as to whether and when to have children belongs solely to the parents, and especially to the mother. Politicians should keep their noses out. If a person doesn’t approve of abortion, then they don’t have to have one. After a baby is born and is being utilized by conscious awareness, then that body must be preserved and protected out of respect for its owner if possible, but until that time it is under the sole ownership and control of the mother.
In economic terms, Alabama was already a terrible place for women.
WilliamFleming comments on May 15, 2019:
You might disagree with our Alabama legislators about abortion—I certainly do. That’s no reason however to throw mud and demonize the entire state. We might be a few percentage points below the national average in some areas but I believe that in race relations Alabama comes out ahead.
I ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 16, 2019:
@heymoe2001 I said that WE were having a childish conversation. It is kindergarten stuff to argue over who’s state is more racist. That time and energy should go towards making things better.
She upvoted me so maybe you are interpreting it the wrong way. Have a nice day.
WilliamFleming comments on May 15, 2019:
You might disagree with our Alabama legislators about abortion—I certainly do. That’s no reason however to throw mud and demonize the entire state. We might be a few percentage points below the national average in some areas but I believe that in race relations Alabama comes out ahead.
I ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 16, 2019:
@heymoe2001 I said that WE were having a childish conversation. It is kindergarten stuff to argue over who’s state is more racist. That time and energy should go towards making things better.
She upvoted me so maybe you are interpreting it the wrong way. Have a nice day.
Some people think that science has all the answers that matter, and that things that cannot be ...
billhoo comments on May 16, 2019:
I can prove your entire statement, except for a soul. I understand the soul to be an extension of mankind’s hopefulness that there is something beyond death. Consciousness is the brain’s ability to receive and process information from it’s many sensory inputs. Hope, trust, love, are all ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 16, 2019:
“Consciousness is the brain’s ability to receive and process information from it’s many sensory inputs.”
Can you prove that statement? Conscious awareness is something that is totally baffling to the greatest thinkers on earth. They don’t call it the “ hard problem” for nothing.
Nothing was said about a deity here, but the nature of ultimate reality beyond the senses is an overwhelming mystery barely touched by scientific inquiry.
billhoo comments on May 16, 2019:
I can prove your entire statement, except for a soul. I understand the soul to be an extension of mankind’s hopefulness that there is something beyond death. Consciousness is the brain’s ability to receive and process information from it’s many sensory inputs. Hope, trust, love, are all ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 16, 2019:
“Consciousness is the brain’s ability to receive and process information from it’s many sensory inputs.”
Can you prove that statement? Conscious awareness is something that is totally baffling to the greatest thinkers on earth. They don’t call it the “ hard problem” for nothing.
Nothing was said about a deity here, but the nature of ultimate reality beyond the senses is an overwhelming mystery barely touched by scientific inquiry.
In economic terms, Alabama was already a terrible place for women.
WilliamFleming comments on May 15, 2019:
You might disagree with our Alabama legislators about abortion—I certainly do. That’s no reason however to throw mud and demonize the entire state. We might be a few percentage points below the national average in some areas but I believe that in race relations Alabama comes out ahead.
I ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 15, 2019:
@LiterateHiker Washington is a very beautiful state full of great people. I was stationed at Ft. Lewis once and more recently lodged at the VA hospital in Seattle. What amazed me was how courteous and yielding the drivers are to bicyclists. I had never experienced that anywhere else.
WilliamFleming comments on May 15, 2019:
You might disagree with our Alabama legislators about abortion—I certainly do. That’s no reason however to throw mud and demonize the entire state. We might be a few percentage points below the national average in some areas but I believe that in race relations Alabama comes out ahead.
I ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 15, 2019:
@LiterateHiker Washington is a very beautiful state full of great people. I was stationed at Ft. Lewis once and more recently lodged at the VA hospital in Seattle. What amazed me was how courteous and yielding the drivers are to bicyclists. I had never experienced that anywhere else.
In economic terms, Alabama was already a terrible place for women.
WilliamFleming comments on May 15, 2019:
You might disagree with our Alabama legislators about abortion—I certainly do. That’s no reason however to throw mud and demonize the entire state. We might be a few percentage points below the national average in some areas but I believe that in race relations Alabama comes out ahead.
I ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 15, 2019:
@LiterateHiker I did read the entire article and I saw nothing like what you say, however no doubt a person could find articles slamming the South if they wanted to. You can also find numerous articles, based on professionally conducted surveys that show the South to be no worse than the rest of the country, and that show it to be better in race relations. Did you read the link I provided?
I didn’t read those articles that came up about Washington racism, but I did note the the word “Seattle” was visible in many of the titles. I don’t think you can slither away by claiming that it’s only those East Washington folks who are racist.
IMO we are being childish by this exchange. “Your State is more racist than my state” is not going to do one thing to help people get along.
“Darkness cannot drive out darkness, only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.”
—Martin Luther King, Jr.
WilliamFleming comments on May 15, 2019:
You might disagree with our Alabama legislators about abortion—I certainly do. That’s no reason however to throw mud and demonize the entire state. We might be a few percentage points below the national average in some areas but I believe that in race relations Alabama comes out ahead.
I ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 15, 2019:
@LiterateHiker I did read the entire article and I saw nothing like what you say, however no doubt a person could find articles slamming the South if they wanted to. You can also find numerous articles, based on professionally conducted surveys that show the South to be no worse than the rest of the country, and that show it to be better in race relations. Did you read the link I provided?
I didn’t read those articles that came up about Washington racism, but I did note the the word “Seattle” was visible in many of the titles. I don’t think you can slither away by claiming that it’s only those East Washington folks who are racist.
IMO we are being childish by this exchange. “Your State is more racist than my state” is not going to do one thing to help people get along.
“Darkness cannot drive out darkness, only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.”
—Martin Luther King, Jr.
Flat Earth theory is a actually a great metaphor for a religion - if you dig too deep, you end up ...
WilliamFleming comments on May 11, 2019:
It’s the same with any purported knowledge about the underpinnings of reality: Dig too deeply and you end up with an empty void. That includes scientism.
It is considered proper and correct to say that the earth is “round”. “Spherical” would be closer, but actually the earth is best ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 12, 2019:
@t1nick I will only say that those great scientists were not “believers”. They were open-minded inquirers who knew the limitations of science.
Now that I understand your question about absolutes I can say no, in this context I do not believe in absolutes. I don’t even believe in belief.
WilliamFleming comments on May 11, 2019:
It’s the same with any purported knowledge about the underpinnings of reality: Dig too deeply and you end up with an empty void. That includes scientism.
It is considered proper and correct to say that the earth is “round”. “Spherical” would be closer, but actually the earth is best ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 12, 2019:
@t1nick I will only say that those great scientists were not “believers”. They were open-minded inquirers who knew the limitations of science.
Now that I understand your question about absolutes I can say no, in this context I do not believe in absolutes. I don’t even believe in belief.
Flat Earth theory is a actually a great metaphor for a religion - if you dig too deep, you end up ...
WilliamFleming comments on May 11, 2019:
It’s the same with any purported knowledge about the underpinnings of reality: Dig too deeply and you end up with an empty void. That includes scientism.
It is considered proper and correct to say that the earth is “round”. “Spherical” would be closer, but actually the earth is best ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 12, 2019:
@t1nick Actually I was not trying to say that science and religion are on equal footing or are equivalent. What I said was that there are deep questions pertaining to existence of which neither science nor religion offer insight or understanding, and that the most rational state of mind in the face of the stark mysteries of reality is awe, reverence, and bewilderment.
I fully appreciate the need for strict discipline in the application of the scientific method, and I appreciate the great boon science has been to mankind. I am pro science all the way but I know that there are areas untouchable by science in its present form. Science does NOT explain everything, and the insights that science provides, while valuable, are superficial.
There is a great amount of anti-religious fervor on this forum, and that antipathy is understandable. A person who has found the courage to break away from dogmatic, irrational religion naturally is very anxious to keep religion away from them at all costs. I am just as averse to authoritarian, dogmatic religious groups as anyone, but IMO there are religious-like or metaphysical sentiments that are a valuable part of humanity and deserve respect. There’s a lot more to religion that what is taught in traditional Christian churches.
My vision of an advanced religion is one that requires no belief whatsoever. It embraces the findings of science. Most of all, it should foster deep awareness, reverence and appreciation for the overwhelming mystery of existence. Religion is not a belief system about nature, in opposition to science. It is rather, a way of life that mirrors deep conscious awareness for the beauty and value of each passing moment. It seems to me that in every scientific discipline the most creative and productive scientists have been deeply involved in metaphysical thought.
It's not science OR religion. Each, if viewed a certain way, complements the other. Many truly creative and celebrated physicists have been religious, but in their own ways. Of course, if you insist on the most dogmatic and immature approach you'll get conflict. It seems to me that courageous people, whether atheists or theists, evolve toward common ground. Others remain stuck either in materialist or religious dogma, frozen by fear.
Werner Karl Heisenberg:
"The first gulp from the glass of natural sciences will turn you into an atheist, but at the bottom of the glass God is waiting for you."
"The atoms or elementary particles themselves are not real; they form a world of potentialities or possibilities rather than one of things or facts."
“In the history of science, ever since the famous trial of Galileo, it has repeatedly been claimed that scientific truth cannot be reconciled with the religious interpretation of the world. ...
WilliamFleming comments on May 11, 2019:
It’s the same with any purported knowledge about the underpinnings of reality: Dig too deeply and you end up with an empty void. That includes scientism.
It is considered proper and correct to say that the earth is “round”. “Spherical” would be closer, but actually the earth is best ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 12, 2019:
@t1nick Actually I was not trying to say that science and religion are on equal footing or are equivalent. What I said was that there are deep questions pertaining to existence of which neither science nor religion offer insight or understanding, and that the most rational state of mind in the face of the stark mysteries of reality is awe, reverence, and bewilderment.
I fully appreciate the need for strict discipline in the application of the scientific method, and I appreciate the great boon science has been to mankind. I am pro science all the way but I know that there are areas untouchable by science in its present form. Science does NOT explain everything, and the insights that science provides, while valuable, are superficial.
There is a great amount of anti-religious fervor on this forum, and that antipathy is understandable. A person who has found the courage to break away from dogmatic, irrational religion naturally is very anxious to keep religion away from them at all costs. I am just as averse to authoritarian, dogmatic religious groups as anyone, but IMO there are religious-like or metaphysical sentiments that are a valuable part of humanity and deserve respect. There’s a lot more to religion that what is taught in traditional Christian churches.
My vision of an advanced religion is one that requires no belief whatsoever. It embraces the findings of science. Most of all, it should foster deep awareness, reverence and appreciation for the overwhelming mystery of existence. Religion is not a belief system about nature, in opposition to science. It is rather, a way of life that mirrors deep conscious awareness for the beauty and value of each passing moment. It seems to me that in every scientific discipline the most creative and productive scientists have been deeply involved in metaphysical thought.
It's not science OR religion. Each, if viewed a certain way, complements the other. Many truly creative and celebrated physicists have been religious, but in their own ways. Of course, if you insist on the most dogmatic and immature approach you'll get conflict. It seems to me that courageous people, whether atheists or theists, evolve toward common ground. Others remain stuck either in materialist or religious dogma, frozen by fear.
Werner Karl Heisenberg:
"The first gulp from the glass of natural sciences will turn you into an atheist, but at the bottom of the glass God is waiting for you."
"The atoms or elementary particles themselves are not real; they form a world of potentialities or possibilities rather than one of things or facts."
“In the history of science, ever since the famous trial of Galileo, it has repeatedly been claimed that scientific truth cannot be reconciled with the religious interpretation of the world. ...
Flat Earth theory is a actually a great metaphor for a religion - if you dig too deep, you end up ...
WilliamFleming comments on May 11, 2019:
It’s the same with any purported knowledge about the underpinnings of reality: Dig too deeply and you end up with an empty void. That includes scientism.
It is considered proper and correct to say that the earth is “round”. “Spherical” would be closer, but actually the earth is best ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 11, 2019:
@t1nick As you know, an undergraduate degree in the world of mathematics is just kindergarten, so my “background in mathematics” is slight.
So far as absolutes, it would depend on the context, however, I don’t think a mathematician would express belief or disbelief, which are nothing but opinions—emotions. A mathematician would analyze the definitions, assumptions and logical steps and determine if certain assertions are logically consistent within a given logical system.
Which absolutes are you referring to?
WilliamFleming comments on May 11, 2019:
It’s the same with any purported knowledge about the underpinnings of reality: Dig too deeply and you end up with an empty void. That includes scientism.
It is considered proper and correct to say that the earth is “round”. “Spherical” would be closer, but actually the earth is best ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 11, 2019:
@t1nick As you know, an undergraduate degree in the world of mathematics is just kindergarten, so my “background in mathematics” is slight.
So far as absolutes, it would depend on the context, however, I don’t think a mathematician would express belief or disbelief, which are nothing but opinions—emotions. A mathematician would analyze the definitions, assumptions and logical steps and determine if certain assertions are logically consistent within a given logical system.
Which absolutes are you referring to?
Flat Earth theory is a actually a great metaphor for a religion - if you dig too deep, you end up ...
WilliamFleming comments on May 11, 2019:
It’s the same with any purported knowledge about the underpinnings of reality: Dig too deeply and you end up with an empty void. That includes scientism.
It is considered proper and correct to say that the earth is “round”. “Spherical” would be closer, but actually the earth is best ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 11, 2019:
@t1nick
“The voids that we experience is science is the void that occurs when a new unasked question arises spurring on a new avenue of inquiry.”
True, but besides those temporary voids is a really huge void in our basic understanding of reality. Science does not even address, let alone answer the deep questions of existence. Richard Feynman addressed that issue in the introduction to “QED”. He said not to ask why. No one knows why, and the why might be unknowable. He said that if students ask why they are told to shut up and compute.
It is no surprise to me that half of US scientists express belief in some sort of God concept, and that most of the founders of modern physics were deeply religious in their own ways. I do not support pedantic religious organizations, and equally I do not support a pedantic embrace of science. IMO the most honest and reasonable response to the staggering implications of reality is total bewilderment.
I might sound phony to you but I am writing what I feel deeply.
WilliamFleming comments on May 11, 2019:
It’s the same with any purported knowledge about the underpinnings of reality: Dig too deeply and you end up with an empty void. That includes scientism.
It is considered proper and correct to say that the earth is “round”. “Spherical” would be closer, but actually the earth is best ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 11, 2019:
@t1nick
“The voids that we experience is science is the void that occurs when a new unasked question arises spurring on a new avenue of inquiry.”
True, but besides those temporary voids is a really huge void in our basic understanding of reality. Science does not even address, let alone answer the deep questions of existence. Richard Feynman addressed that issue in the introduction to “QED”. He said not to ask why. No one knows why, and the why might be unknowable. He said that if students ask why they are told to shut up and compute.
It is no surprise to me that half of US scientists express belief in some sort of God concept, and that most of the founders of modern physics were deeply religious in their own ways. I do not support pedantic religious organizations, and equally I do not support a pedantic embrace of science. IMO the most honest and reasonable response to the staggering implications of reality is total bewilderment.
I might sound phony to you but I am writing what I feel deeply.
Honestly it surprised me how much more that Atheists know Christianity its origins and whats in the ...
WilliamFleming comments on May 10, 2019:
Ahem...some atheists...some Christians.
WilliamFleming replies on May 11, 2019:
@Lizard_of_Ahaz That’s interesting information but that does not negate what I am talking about. All you are saying is that ONE atheist knows more about the Bible than SOME Christians.
It’s interesting that you would spend so much time and effort in studying the Bible. The Bible holds very little interest to me.
WilliamFleming comments on May 10, 2019:
Ahem...some atheists...some Christians.
WilliamFleming replies on May 11, 2019:
@Lizard_of_Ahaz That’s interesting information but that does not negate what I am talking about. All you are saying is that ONE atheist knows more about the Bible than SOME Christians.
It’s interesting that you would spend so much time and effort in studying the Bible. The Bible holds very little interest to me.
Scientific evidence is great and all but I think its also important for everone to back up and ...
freedom41 comments on May 10, 2019:
God didn't do any of it, because he doesn't exist. The big bang set everything into motion for what we have today. Only mentally ill and gulliable people believe god did something.
WilliamFleming replies on May 10, 2019:
The Big Bang explains nothing. You might as well attribute reality to God.
freedom41 comments on May 10, 2019:
God didn't do any of it, because he doesn't exist. The big bang set everything into motion for what we have today. Only mentally ill and gulliable people believe god did something.
WilliamFleming replies on May 10, 2019:
The Big Bang explains nothing. You might as well attribute reality to God.
I'm friends with one of my bus drivers (I've befriended more than a few over the years actually) and...
MSUskyliner comments on May 9, 2019:
Quite well said. Some time ago, Brian Weiss, MD wrote "Many Lives Many Masters." On page 53 I think, is the first mention of the "masters" which ultimately entertains - with fascinating evidence - a sort of continuum of consciousness - (the manner of his presentation, incidentially, seems to ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 10, 2019:
I just downloaded the book and have read the intro—wow!
This book deserves its own special post.
MSUskyliner comments on May 9, 2019:
Quite well said. Some time ago, Brian Weiss, MD wrote "Many Lives Many Masters." On page 53 I think, is the first mention of the "masters" which ultimately entertains - with fascinating evidence - a sort of continuum of consciousness - (the manner of his presentation, incidentially, seems to ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 10, 2019:
I just downloaded the book and have read the intro—wow!
This book deserves its own special post.
Homo sapiens : The meaning-seeking and meaning-creating animal
Here are some quotes I came ...
WilliamFleming comments on May 8, 2019:
Whether or not there is absolute meaning to life is a very real question with a real answer. The fact that some people are comforted by believing in absolute meaning does not in any way diminish or falsify that meaning.
We usually think of ourselves as human bodies. From that perspective, if ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 9, 2019:
@Happy_Killbot
“There are other levels above that, but its no use thinking about them if you have never experienced any reality except the one centered around yourself.”
So have you experienced those higher levels of reality? Please elaborate.
WilliamFleming comments on May 8, 2019:
Whether or not there is absolute meaning to life is a very real question with a real answer. The fact that some people are comforted by believing in absolute meaning does not in any way diminish or falsify that meaning.
We usually think of ourselves as human bodies. From that perspective, if ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 9, 2019:
@Happy_Killbot
“There are other levels above that, but its no use thinking about them if you have never experienced any reality except the one centered around yourself.”
So have you experienced those higher levels of reality? Please elaborate.
Homo sapiens : The meaning-seeking and meaning-creating animal
Here are some quotes I came ...
WilliamFleming comments on May 8, 2019:
Whether or not there is absolute meaning to life is a very real question with a real answer. The fact that some people are comforted by believing in absolute meaning does not in any way diminish or falsify that meaning.
We usually think of ourselves as human bodies. From that perspective, if ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 8, 2019:
@Happy_Killbot In a sense I agree. The very concepts of meaning and value are just human- based ideas of little significance on a cosmic scale. Normally we think of something as valuable if it gives us pleasure and helps us survive or live securely and well. Extending value to reality as a whole is a risky thing.
From my human perspective however, existence has infinite value absolutely. So far as what the purpose is, that is a mystery. Maybe no purpose is required.
Our very definition of existence is a murky thing, taken for granted but by no means understood. It’s hard to have a meaningful conversation about the purpose of existence if we don’t know what existence is.
It boils down to awareness. Reality is that of which I am consciously aware. It’s all about me. :-)
WilliamFleming comments on May 8, 2019:
Whether or not there is absolute meaning to life is a very real question with a real answer. The fact that some people are comforted by believing in absolute meaning does not in any way diminish or falsify that meaning.
We usually think of ourselves as human bodies. From that perspective, if ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 8, 2019:
@Happy_Killbot In a sense I agree. The very concepts of meaning and value are just human- based ideas of little significance on a cosmic scale. Normally we think of something as valuable if it gives us pleasure and helps us survive or live securely and well. Extending value to reality as a whole is a risky thing.
From my human perspective however, existence has infinite value absolutely. So far as what the purpose is, that is a mystery. Maybe no purpose is required.
Our very definition of existence is a murky thing, taken for granted but by no means understood. It’s hard to have a meaningful conversation about the purpose of existence if we don’t know what existence is.
It boils down to awareness. Reality is that of which I am consciously aware. It’s all about me. :-)
The American Taliban
WilliamFleming comments on May 6, 2019:
A degree of hyperbole there I think. Baptists do think homosexuality is a sin, but forgivable, and they oppose gay marriage. So did Obama on his first run for the presidency. Baptists also oppose abortion, but that is a long way from seeking to control what all Americans can do, say, or think. ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 6, 2019:
@RonWilliam53 The Post is about the Southern Baptist Convention.
The link you provided refers to the Westboro Baptist Church of Topeka Kansas, a known hate group that is denounced by Baptists.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westboro_Baptist_Church
Blatant stereotyping is at play here.
WilliamFleming comments on May 6, 2019:
A degree of hyperbole there I think. Baptists do think homosexuality is a sin, but forgivable, and they oppose gay marriage. So did Obama on his first run for the presidency. Baptists also oppose abortion, but that is a long way from seeking to control what all Americans can do, say, or think. ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 6, 2019:
@RonWilliam53 The Post is about the Southern Baptist Convention.
The link you provided refers to the Westboro Baptist Church of Topeka Kansas, a known hate group that is denounced by Baptists.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westboro_Baptist_Church
Blatant stereotyping is at play here.
If someone murders another as a crime of passion do we consider that the person had a criminal ...
WilliamFleming comments on May 6, 2019:
I think you just have to say they’ve committed a criminal act and must pay the penalty for that act. If they have a history of such acts they might be punished more severely.
I don’t know if “criminal mindset” is a valid idea. “Criminal” is whatever legislators say is criminal.
WilliamFleming replies on May 6, 2019:
@Beowulfsfriend I see. I was thinking in more general terms.
I’m going to have to be more careful from here out with my liaisons
WilliamFleming comments on May 6, 2019:
I think you just have to say they’ve committed a criminal act and must pay the penalty for that act. If they have a history of such acts they might be punished more severely.
I don’t know if “criminal mindset” is a valid idea. “Criminal” is whatever legislators say is criminal.
WilliamFleming replies on May 6, 2019:
@Beowulfsfriend I see. I was thinking in more general terms.
I’m going to have to be more careful from here out with my liaisons
Should we respect other people's beliefs?
WilliamFleming comments on May 6, 2019:
Respect is not a benevolent act on our part for the benefit of the person being respected. We re-spectate, or take a closer look in order to gain enlarged and more accurate knowledge for our own benefit.
Many times the opinions of the other person are as valid as our own but we will remain blind ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 6, 2019:
@Sdusmith when I respect it is because the subject is worthy of respect., even though we might disagree.
Everyone is logically worthy of respect by virtue of their existence as a consciously aware being.
WilliamFleming comments on May 6, 2019:
Respect is not a benevolent act on our part for the benefit of the person being respected. We re-spectate, or take a closer look in order to gain enlarged and more accurate knowledge for our own benefit.
Many times the opinions of the other person are as valid as our own but we will remain blind ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 6, 2019:
@Sdusmith when I respect it is because the subject is worthy of respect., even though we might disagree.
Everyone is logically worthy of respect by virtue of their existence as a consciously aware being.
The American Taliban
WilliamFleming comments on May 6, 2019:
A degree of hyperbole there I think. Baptists do think homosexuality is a sin, but forgivable, and they oppose gay marriage. So did Obama on his first run for the presidency. Baptists also oppose abortion, but that is a long way from seeking to control what all Americans can do, say, or think. ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 6, 2019:
@Tiramisu, @RonWilliam53 Can you give examples? Remember, this is about Baptists.
WilliamFleming comments on May 6, 2019:
A degree of hyperbole there I think. Baptists do think homosexuality is a sin, but forgivable, and they oppose gay marriage. So did Obama on his first run for the presidency. Baptists also oppose abortion, but that is a long way from seeking to control what all Americans can do, say, or think. ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 6, 2019:
@Tiramisu, @RonWilliam53 Can you give examples? Remember, this is about Baptists.
The American Taliban
WilliamFleming comments on May 6, 2019:
A degree of hyperbole there I think. Baptists do think homosexuality is a sin, but forgivable, and they oppose gay marriage. So did Obama on his first run for the presidency. Baptists also oppose abortion, but that is a long way from seeking to control what all Americans can do, say, or think. ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 6, 2019:
@Tiramisu And yourself as well.
WilliamFleming comments on May 6, 2019:
A degree of hyperbole there I think. Baptists do think homosexuality is a sin, but forgivable, and they oppose gay marriage. So did Obama on his first run for the presidency. Baptists also oppose abortion, but that is a long way from seeking to control what all Americans can do, say, or think. ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 6, 2019:
@Tiramisu And yourself as well.
It is an extremely useful thing, this mathematics, no?
Happy_Killbot comments on May 5, 2019:
math is useful when applied to useful problem solving. in this case, no practical problem is solved or even raised, because there are only 11.7 billion 1 dollar bills in the world.
Why is it a problem that Jeff Bezos is richer than basically everyone, be it through luck or skill?
WilliamFleming replies on May 5, 2019:
@Piratefish The solution to hunger is to produce food. That has nothing to do with Bezos.
Happy_Killbot comments on May 5, 2019:
math is useful when applied to useful problem solving. in this case, no practical problem is solved or even raised, because there are only 11.7 billion 1 dollar bills in the world.
Why is it a problem that Jeff Bezos is richer than basically everyone, be it through luck or skill?
WilliamFleming replies on May 5, 2019:
@Piratefish The solution to hunger is to produce food. That has nothing to do with Bezos.
VB lawmaker 'stunned' by Northam veto of bill allowing murder charge for dealers after overdose - ...
WilliamFleming comments on May 4, 2019:
What if a person dies from eating too much refined sugar? Should the store owner who sold that sugar be charged with murder?
WilliamFleming replies on May 5, 2019:
@Mofo1953 Of course it’s silly! The whole idea of making the comparison is to argue that it’s ridiculous to charge someone with murder because they sold something that caused death through mis-use.
Do you really think I’m proposing that grocers be charged with murder? Now it’s you being silly. Note that I got three upvotes. Most people understand analogies.
WilliamFleming comments on May 4, 2019:
What if a person dies from eating too much refined sugar? Should the store owner who sold that sugar be charged with murder?
WilliamFleming replies on May 5, 2019:
@Mofo1953 Of course it’s silly! The whole idea of making the comparison is to argue that it’s ridiculous to charge someone with murder because they sold something that caused death through mis-use.
Do you really think I’m proposing that grocers be charged with murder? Now it’s you being silly. Note that I got three upvotes. Most people understand analogies.
VB lawmaker 'stunned' by Northam veto of bill allowing murder charge for dealers after overdose - ...
WilliamFleming comments on May 4, 2019:
What if a person dies from eating too much refined sugar? Should the store owner who sold that sugar be charged with murder?
WilliamFleming replies on May 5, 2019:
@Mofo1953 The principle is the same. No analogy is ever 100%.
WilliamFleming comments on May 4, 2019:
What if a person dies from eating too much refined sugar? Should the store owner who sold that sugar be charged with murder?
WilliamFleming replies on May 5, 2019:
@Mofo1953 The principle is the same. No analogy is ever 100%.
"It is still a metaphysical faith upon which our faith in science rests – that even we seekers ...
mordant comments on May 4, 2019:
Well what he seems to be saying is that Christianity and science are derivative from Plato, and Plato's assertion was that god is truth and truth is divine. I don't really see how that follows in the way this quote, in isolation, seems to suggest that it does.
It is true that there are some base ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 4, 2019:
Even atheists of today take their fire from a flame lit THOUSANDS of years ago. Philosophy, religion, science, they all arose from that divine spark of conscious awareness or “truth”.
That’s how I read it.
mordant comments on May 4, 2019:
Well what he seems to be saying is that Christianity and science are derivative from Plato, and Plato's assertion was that god is truth and truth is divine. I don't really see how that follows in the way this quote, in isolation, seems to suggest that it does.
It is true that there are some base ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 4, 2019:
Even atheists of today take their fire from a flame lit THOUSANDS of years ago. Philosophy, religion, science, they all arose from that divine spark of conscious awareness or “truth”.
That’s how I read it.
I am just learning about this meditation in motion method that might be of interest.
Metahuman comments on May 4, 2019:
It comes up as a 404. Sorry, what's the method though?
WilliamFleming replies on May 4, 2019:
Sorry, apparently Science and Nonduality has dropped it. There are other sources though.
https://www.google.com/search?q=tandava+meditation&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-us=safari
I won’t try to describe it because I am new to the method. Basically you move your arms slowly and rock back and forth while you meditate.
Metahuman comments on May 4, 2019:
It comes up as a 404. Sorry, what's the method though?
WilliamFleming replies on May 4, 2019:
Sorry, apparently Science and Nonduality has dropped it. There are other sources though.
https://www.google.com/search?q=tandava+meditation&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-us=safari
I won’t try to describe it because I am new to the method. Basically you move your arms slowly and rock back and forth while you meditate.
Religious fundamentalists and many of today’s atheists share the same approach to texts.
WilliamFleming comments on May 4, 2019:
I agree. Anything written down has to be interpreted, and the ideas you read are only meaningful if they resonate with you on a deep level.
Some concepts are difficult to express in a direct, literal way, thus we have metaphors, allegories, parables and analogies, not only in religion but in ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 4, 2019:
@Fernapple I agree. Actually Shakespeare probably is a superior source of insight.
I think what matias is saying is that whatever religious tract we are reading, for any meaning to be gained it has to be read with liberal interpretations. Many atheists are hypercritical of anything that smacks of religion, and they tend to wholly reject a book if there are statements that seem untrue with a literal interpretation.
WilliamFleming comments on May 4, 2019:
I agree. Anything written down has to be interpreted, and the ideas you read are only meaningful if they resonate with you on a deep level.
Some concepts are difficult to express in a direct, literal way, thus we have metaphors, allegories, parables and analogies, not only in religion but in ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 4, 2019:
@Fernapple I agree. Actually Shakespeare probably is a superior source of insight.
I think what matias is saying is that whatever religious tract we are reading, for any meaning to be gained it has to be read with liberal interpretations. Many atheists are hypercritical of anything that smacks of religion, and they tend to wholly reject a book if there are statements that seem untrue with a literal interpretation.
"It is still a metaphysical faith upon which our faith in science rests – that even we seekers ...
wordywalt comments on May 3, 2019:
That "God is truth" is a baseless assumption, an a priori assumption with no basis.
WilliamFleming replies on May 3, 2019:
Which God is that , the one that sparked science, Christianity, philosophy? THAT god is truth. (The truth of existence revealed by conscious awareness)
It’s metaphor, not an argument for the existence of God.
wordywalt comments on May 3, 2019:
That "God is truth" is a baseless assumption, an a priori assumption with no basis.
WilliamFleming replies on May 3, 2019:
Which God is that , the one that sparked science, Christianity, philosophy? THAT god is truth. (The truth of existence revealed by conscious awareness)
It’s metaphor, not an argument for the existence of God.
"It is still a metaphysical faith upon which our faith in science rests – that even we seekers ...
KKGator comments on May 3, 2019:
Nietzsche was incorrect.
Plato was dead a good 300 years BEFORE the invention of Jesus and chrisitianity.
There was no chance that Plato was ever a "christian".
I checked the veracity of the quote, and it is attributed to him, even though it's
completely incorrect.
WilliamFleming replies on May 3, 2019:
@KKGator Madam I have no desire to debate with you, my Georgia neighbor.
Have a very nice day.
KKGator comments on May 3, 2019:
Nietzsche was incorrect.
Plato was dead a good 300 years BEFORE the invention of Jesus and chrisitianity.
There was no chance that Plato was ever a "christian".
I checked the veracity of the quote, and it is attributed to him, even though it's
completely incorrect.
WilliamFleming replies on May 3, 2019:
@KKGator Madam I have no desire to debate with you, my Georgia neighbor.
Have a very nice day.
"It is still a metaphysical faith upon which our faith in science rests – that even we seekers ...
KKGator comments on May 3, 2019:
Nietzsche was incorrect.
Plato was dead a good 300 years BEFORE the invention of Jesus and chrisitianity.
There was no chance that Plato was ever a "christian".
I checked the veracity of the quote, and it is attributed to him, even though it's
completely incorrect.
WilliamFleming replies on May 3, 2019:
@KKGator What about all those eminent physicists who have said similar things? Are all of them vainglorious bullshitters?
KKGator comments on May 3, 2019:
Nietzsche was incorrect.
Plato was dead a good 300 years BEFORE the invention of Jesus and chrisitianity.
There was no chance that Plato was ever a "christian".
I checked the veracity of the quote, and it is attributed to him, even though it's
completely incorrect.
WilliamFleming replies on May 3, 2019:
@KKGator What about all those eminent physicists who have said similar things? Are all of them vainglorious bullshitters?
"It is still a metaphysical faith upon which our faith in science rests – that even we seekers ...
KKGator comments on May 3, 2019:
Nietzsche was incorrect.
Plato was dead a good 300 years BEFORE the invention of Jesus and chrisitianity.
There was no chance that Plato was ever a "christian".
I checked the veracity of the quote, and it is attributed to him, even though it's
completely incorrect.
WilliamFleming replies on May 3, 2019:
I think you are misreading it. Nietzsche is talking about that common fire that sparked the Christian faith as well as the philosophy of Plato., and it sparked science as well. He calls that fire divine truth.
I think of it as deep conscious awareness.
KKGator comments on May 3, 2019:
Nietzsche was incorrect.
Plato was dead a good 300 years BEFORE the invention of Jesus and chrisitianity.
There was no chance that Plato was ever a "christian".
I checked the veracity of the quote, and it is attributed to him, even though it's
completely incorrect.
WilliamFleming replies on May 3, 2019:
I think you are misreading it. Nietzsche is talking about that common fire that sparked the Christian faith as well as the philosophy of Plato., and it sparked science as well. He calls that fire divine truth.
I think of it as deep conscious awareness.
Electing an atheist president? [bigthink.com]
WilliamFleming comments on May 2, 2019:
I would not vote for AN atheist. I would vote for good, qualified leaders however, regardless of their religious opinions. If your personal identity is some sort of “ist” that means you might try to stamp society with your lame-brain ideas ala Stalin, Pol Pot, Chairman Mao, et al. After all, the...
WilliamFleming replies on May 2, 2019:
@Allamanda The desire to get a self-professed atheist into office no matter who it is or what their qualifications are is disturbing. A person’s opinions about religion should be of little interest IMO.
WilliamFleming comments on May 2, 2019:
I would not vote for AN atheist. I would vote for good, qualified leaders however, regardless of their religious opinions. If your personal identity is some sort of “ist” that means you might try to stamp society with your lame-brain ideas ala Stalin, Pol Pot, Chairman Mao, et al. After all, the...
WilliamFleming replies on May 2, 2019:
@Allamanda The desire to get a self-professed atheist into office no matter who it is or what their qualifications are is disturbing. A person’s opinions about religion should be of little interest IMO.
Electing an atheist president? [bigthink.com]
WilliamFleming comments on May 2, 2019:
I would not vote for AN atheist. I would vote for good, qualified leaders however, regardless of their religious opinions. If your personal identity is some sort of “ist” that means you might try to stamp society with your lame-brain ideas ala Stalin, Pol Pot, Chairman Mao, et al. After all, the...
WilliamFleming replies on May 2, 2019:
@Allamanda it all depends on whether the person is well rounded and values the country as a whole over their ideology. For example, Hillary Clinton says that she is a Methodist but her actual self is something else so she passes muster.
The English language is sort of weird in that we are always saying we are this or that thing, as though those things were our embodiment, our identity. Not all languages are that way. Reminds me of when JFK stood up before a crowd in Berlin and announced that he was a donut. BTW, when in Germany one should not say that he is hot, and by all means do not inquire of a woman if she is hot. “Sind sie heiss?” might get you in deep trouble.
WilliamFleming comments on May 2, 2019:
I would not vote for AN atheist. I would vote for good, qualified leaders however, regardless of their religious opinions. If your personal identity is some sort of “ist” that means you might try to stamp society with your lame-brain ideas ala Stalin, Pol Pot, Chairman Mao, et al. After all, the...
WilliamFleming replies on May 2, 2019:
@Allamanda it all depends on whether the person is well rounded and values the country as a whole over their ideology. For example, Hillary Clinton says that she is a Methodist but her actual self is something else so she passes muster.
The English language is sort of weird in that we are always saying we are this or that thing, as though those things were our embodiment, our identity. Not all languages are that way. Reminds me of when JFK stood up before a crowd in Berlin and announced that he was a donut. BTW, when in Germany one should not say that he is hot, and by all means do not inquire of a woman if she is hot. “Sind sie heiss?” might get you in deep trouble.
Evangelicals Breaking Up with Jesus
[youtube.com]
WilliamFleming comments on Apr 30, 2019:
Trump has never claimed to be an evangelical, rather he’s a sometime mainline Protestant with strong secular leanings.
Methodist Hillary Clinton is your evangelical. Could there be some faulty thinking in these slurring presentations? Is there anything remotely liberal about this stuff? Damn, ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 1, 2019:
@LetzGetReal I agree wholeheartedly! We have had very few truly admirable political leaders. I thought Obama was genuine, and also Bill Clinton to some degree.
If only Colin Powell had agreed to run I think we’d have had a truly great president. I think he was averse to dirtying himself with politics and to being exposed to the lies and insinuations of the news media.
WilliamFleming comments on Apr 30, 2019:
Trump has never claimed to be an evangelical, rather he’s a sometime mainline Protestant with strong secular leanings.
Methodist Hillary Clinton is your evangelical. Could there be some faulty thinking in these slurring presentations? Is there anything remotely liberal about this stuff? Damn, ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 1, 2019:
@LetzGetReal I agree wholeheartedly! We have had very few truly admirable political leaders. I thought Obama was genuine, and also Bill Clinton to some degree.
If only Colin Powell had agreed to run I think we’d have had a truly great president. I think he was averse to dirtying himself with politics and to being exposed to the lies and insinuations of the news media.
Evangelicals Breaking Up with Jesus
[youtube.com]
WilliamFleming comments on Apr 30, 2019:
Trump has never claimed to be an evangelical, rather he’s a sometime mainline Protestant with strong secular leanings.
Methodist Hillary Clinton is your evangelical. Could there be some faulty thinking in these slurring presentations? Is there anything remotely liberal about this stuff? Damn, ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 1, 2019:
@t1nick Oh for goodness sakes!
First of all I’m not really a Trump man. I voted for Johnson, but since Trump won I feel that good citizenship requires giving the man at least a modicum of support. All these constant childish attacks in the media wear thin.
Secondly, I have nothing but respect for either of the Clintons. It is s matter of record that Hillary is a member of the United Methodist Church. You can go to their web site and see that they advertise themselves as evangelical. That fact in no way impugns Ms. Clinton in my eyes.
In mentioning Clinton’s evangelical status I am only pointing out the glaring hysterical hypocrisy of the childish left wing mob that dominates the national news media. They are striving to create division by demonizing “evangelicals” but I wonder if they even know what one of those is.
What it amounts to is stereotyping and scapegoating—looking for someone to blame for Trump’s victory and having to create a fictional enemy through unwarranted generalizations and demonization.
My prediction: Their antics will bring about another victory for Trump. The American people aren’t that stupid—they see right through these harpies.
WilliamFleming comments on Apr 30, 2019:
Trump has never claimed to be an evangelical, rather he’s a sometime mainline Protestant with strong secular leanings.
Methodist Hillary Clinton is your evangelical. Could there be some faulty thinking in these slurring presentations? Is there anything remotely liberal about this stuff? Damn, ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 1, 2019:
@t1nick Oh for goodness sakes!
First of all I’m not really a Trump man. I voted for Johnson, but since Trump won I feel that good citizenship requires giving the man at least a modicum of support. All these constant childish attacks in the media wear thin.
Secondly, I have nothing but respect for either of the Clintons. It is s matter of record that Hillary is a member of the United Methodist Church. You can go to their web site and see that they advertise themselves as evangelical. That fact in no way impugns Ms. Clinton in my eyes.
In mentioning Clinton’s evangelical status I am only pointing out the glaring hysterical hypocrisy of the childish left wing mob that dominates the national news media. They are striving to create division by demonizing “evangelicals” but I wonder if they even know what one of those is.
What it amounts to is stereotyping and scapegoating—looking for someone to blame for Trump’s victory and having to create a fictional enemy through unwarranted generalizations and demonization.
My prediction: Their antics will bring about another victory for Trump. The American people aren’t that stupid—they see right through these harpies.
Given that life in itself is meaningless, what do we have in mind when we talk about the "meaning ...
WilliamFleming comments on Apr 30, 2019:
The chemical process that we call life has no value IMO. Blind, robotic mechanistic events with no awareness and no free will certainly can’t be valuable, and sure enough, we see that organic bodies live only for awhile and then they die. Sometimes they die en masse. And while they are alive they ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 1, 2019:
@Fernapple I remember that we had a few testy exchanges at first. Maybe we are evolving toward common ground or something like that.
Thanks for your response.
WilliamFleming comments on Apr 30, 2019:
The chemical process that we call life has no value IMO. Blind, robotic mechanistic events with no awareness and no free will certainly can’t be valuable, and sure enough, we see that organic bodies live only for awhile and then they die. Sometimes they die en masse. And while they are alive they ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 1, 2019:
@Fernapple I remember that we had a few testy exchanges at first. Maybe we are evolving toward common ground or something like that.
Thanks for your response.
Did you have an atheist epiphany?
WilliamFleming comments on Apr 30, 2019:
“...but the natural world was pretty awesome and there was no need for the supernatural.”
I agree 100% except that the natural world is EXTREMELY awesome to the point of being mind-boggling. The concept of the supernatural is pretty empty IMO. Trying to divide reality into natural vs. ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 1, 2019:
@m16566 There are ways of finding out if Santa Claus is real. The God question is not so simple.
WilliamFleming comments on Apr 30, 2019:
“...but the natural world was pretty awesome and there was no need for the supernatural.”
I agree 100% except that the natural world is EXTREMELY awesome to the point of being mind-boggling. The concept of the supernatural is pretty empty IMO. Trying to divide reality into natural vs. ...
WilliamFleming replies on May 1, 2019:
@m16566 There are ways of finding out if Santa Claus is real. The God question is not so simple.
Given that life in itself is meaningless, what do we have in mind when we talk about the "meaning ...
WilliamFleming comments on Apr 30, 2019:
The chemical process that we call life has no value IMO. Blind, robotic mechanistic events with no awareness and no free will certainly can’t be valuable, and sure enough, we see that organic bodies live only for awhile and then they die. Sometimes they die en masse. And while they are alive they ...
WilliamFleming replies on Apr 30, 2019:
@TCorCM Yes, and that depends on conscious awareness of the here and now, doesn’t it?
WilliamFleming comments on Apr 30, 2019:
The chemical process that we call life has no value IMO. Blind, robotic mechanistic events with no awareness and no free will certainly can’t be valuable, and sure enough, we see that organic bodies live only for awhile and then they die. Sometimes they die en masse. And while they are alive they ...
WilliamFleming replies on Apr 30, 2019:
@TCorCM Yes, and that depends on conscious awareness of the here and now, doesn’t it?
“The goal of a good society is to structure social relations and institutions so that cooperative ...
WilliamFleming comments on Apr 26, 2019:
Who gets to decide what the goal is of a good society. Who decreed that societies should have goals? What is a good society in the first place? Which are the good ones and which the bad?
Humans have evolved over millions of years, and what you see is what you get. Things are as they are for ...
WilliamFleming replies on Apr 28, 2019:
@callmedubious You are talking about government malfeasance and I am telling you what it takes to produce real wealth. We are getting nowhere.
Goodnight.
WilliamFleming comments on Apr 26, 2019:
Who gets to decide what the goal is of a good society. Who decreed that societies should have goals? What is a good society in the first place? Which are the good ones and which the bad?
Humans have evolved over millions of years, and what you see is what you get. Things are as they are for ...
WilliamFleming replies on Apr 28, 2019:
@callmedubious You are talking about government malfeasance and I am telling you what it takes to produce real wealth. We are getting nowhere.
Goodnight.
Religion, the Oldest Weapon of Mass Destruction in Human History
Geoffrey51 comments on Apr 28, 2019:
Not a very well written article. Just puerile, rhetoric filled verbiage. Probably aimed at a particular audience. The author purports to have a degree in social political history. I’m sure if this was submitted as a course paper it would have been sent back after the first paragraph!
WilliamFleming replies on Apr 28, 2019:
I value your opinion so will forego reading the article.
Thanks for the review.
Geoffrey51 comments on Apr 28, 2019:
Not a very well written article. Just puerile, rhetoric filled verbiage. Probably aimed at a particular audience. The author purports to have a degree in social political history. I’m sure if this was submitted as a course paper it would have been sent back after the first paragraph!
WilliamFleming replies on Apr 28, 2019:
I value your opinion so will forego reading the article.
Thanks for the review.
“The goal of a good society is to structure social relations and institutions so that cooperative ...
WilliamFleming comments on Apr 26, 2019:
Who gets to decide what the goal is of a good society. Who decreed that societies should have goals? What is a good society in the first place? Which are the good ones and which the bad?
Humans have evolved over millions of years, and what you see is what you get. Things are as they are for ...
WilliamFleming replies on Apr 28, 2019:
@callmedubious True enough, but they don’t go to bed hungry because of what billionaires eat any more than because of what you and I eat. There could be various causes for hunger. Local weather conditions might cause famine. Too many people in a region and not enough food production could be a cause. Families could have fallen on hard times through some misfortune or other. In none of those cases are people hungry because rich people have money.
You might think that by taking away money from rich people you could buy food for poor people and thereby eliminate hunger. Short-term such a plan might provide emergency relief, but you would be taking away food from other people. For a permanent solution more crops need to be planted. Irrigation systems installed, etc. Where there are too many people for the available food the demographic must somehow change. Industries might be developed so that manufactured products could be traded for food.
Such changes require capital investment, entrepreneurship and a lot of individual hard work by the people involved. Sitting idle in envy of the rich gets us nowhere. Wealth has to be created.
WilliamFleming comments on Apr 26, 2019:
Who gets to decide what the goal is of a good society. Who decreed that societies should have goals? What is a good society in the first place? Which are the good ones and which the bad?
Humans have evolved over millions of years, and what you see is what you get. Things are as they are for ...
WilliamFleming replies on Apr 28, 2019:
@callmedubious True enough, but they don’t go to bed hungry because of what billionaires eat any more than because of what you and I eat. There could be various causes for hunger. Local weather conditions might cause famine. Too many people in a region and not enough food production could be a cause. Families could have fallen on hard times through some misfortune or other. In none of those cases are people hungry because rich people have money.
You might think that by taking away money from rich people you could buy food for poor people and thereby eliminate hunger. Short-term such a plan might provide emergency relief, but you would be taking away food from other people. For a permanent solution more crops need to be planted. Irrigation systems installed, etc. Where there are too many people for the available food the demographic must somehow change. Industries might be developed so that manufactured products could be traded for food.
Such changes require capital investment, entrepreneurship and a lot of individual hard work by the people involved. Sitting idle in envy of the rich gets us nowhere. Wealth has to be created.
We're on a road to destruction if we don't make changes.
Jerkwater_Oracle comments on Apr 27, 2019:
While I can not cite the names of the researchers and institutions which have conducted them from memory, even a half-hearted search will turn up many, non-partisan, scientific studies which have consistently shown that: religious fundamentalism/extremism and extreme political conservatism both ...
WilliamFleming replies on Apr 28, 2019:
@Jerkwater_Oracle I thought I was responding to your post, addressed to me, that was in response to what I said to Wildflower. I assumed that you were attacking what I said to him about reality.
Anyway, I apologize for offending you.
Jerkwater_Oracle comments on Apr 27, 2019:
While I can not cite the names of the researchers and institutions which have conducted them from memory, even a half-hearted search will turn up many, non-partisan, scientific studies which have consistently shown that: religious fundamentalism/extremism and extreme political conservatism both ...
WilliamFleming replies on Apr 28, 2019:
@Jerkwater_Oracle I thought I was responding to your post, addressed to me, that was in response to what I said to Wildflower. I assumed that you were attacking what I said to him about reality.
Anyway, I apologize for offending you.
“The goal of a good society is to structure social relations and institutions so that cooperative ...
WilliamFleming comments on Apr 26, 2019:
Who gets to decide what the goal is of a good society. Who decreed that societies should have goals? What is a good society in the first place? Which are the good ones and which the bad?
Humans have evolved over millions of years, and what you see is what you get. Things are as they are for ...
WilliamFleming replies on Apr 28, 2019:
@callmedubious But that’s not the way it is. Money is not wealth.
Think of all the food produced in the world as being on a large table. The person with ten billion dollars eats no more than a person with ten dollars.
WilliamFleming comments on Apr 26, 2019:
Who gets to decide what the goal is of a good society. Who decreed that societies should have goals? What is a good society in the first place? Which are the good ones and which the bad?
Humans have evolved over millions of years, and what you see is what you get. Things are as they are for ...
WilliamFleming replies on Apr 28, 2019:
@callmedubious But that’s not the way it is. Money is not wealth.
Think of all the food produced in the world as being on a large table. The person with ten billion dollars eats no more than a person with ten dollars.
We're on a road to destruction if we don't make changes.
WilliamFleming comments on Apr 27, 2019:
I fully support the idea of a status update section where we treat each other with kindness. It happens that I just had some trauma. It would be nice to have polite exchanges so that such things can be aired.
These extreme differences—liberal/conservative, religious/atheist—they are only skin...
WilliamFleming replies on Apr 28, 2019:
@OpposingOpposum I don’t know who you are referring to. Is someone justifying torturing and killing for money?
The point I am trying to make is that it is logically necessary to respect everyone, regardless of their opinions, because from a certain perspective we are all the same thing. Someone claiming to be liberal should especially demonstrate an open mind and tolerance for those whose opinions are different. In the final analysis no one really knows much of anything anyway.
If Adolf Hitler walked in I would treat him with respect and courtesy, even though I think he made horrible mistakes. At heart he is no different than Mother Teresa.
“Darkness cannot drive out darkness, only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.”
—Martin Luther King, Jr.
WilliamFleming comments on Apr 27, 2019:
I fully support the idea of a status update section where we treat each other with kindness. It happens that I just had some trauma. It would be nice to have polite exchanges so that such things can be aired.
These extreme differences—liberal/conservative, religious/atheist—they are only skin...
WilliamFleming replies on Apr 28, 2019:
@OpposingOpposum I don’t know who you are referring to. Is someone justifying torturing and killing for money?
The point I am trying to make is that it is logically necessary to respect everyone, regardless of their opinions, because from a certain perspective we are all the same thing. Someone claiming to be liberal should especially demonstrate an open mind and tolerance for those whose opinions are different. In the final analysis no one really knows much of anything anyway.
If Adolf Hitler walked in I would treat him with respect and courtesy, even though I think he made horrible mistakes. At heart he is no different than Mother Teresa.
“Darkness cannot drive out darkness, only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.”
—Martin Luther King, Jr.
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