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A secular ideology that rests on the core value of personal freedom can be dangerous because it encourages people to leave homes, jobs, cities, and marriages in search of personal and professional fulfillment, thereby breaking the relationships that were probably their best hope for such fulfillment.

Matias 8 July 21
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16 comments

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1

Secular means free from religion, not valuing personal freedom, so I don't get your point. Why would being free of religion encourage people to leave home. I was abused by my religious family, so I became secular, not because I wanted no family, but because they were ignorant ass holes. Since then, I've worked to make my own family, which is extremely important to me. Moreover, it is always people who want to restrict personal freedom who are dangerous, people such as Hitler. Desiring personal freedom is wanting to be left alone to do as one wishes, wanting to be free of assholes like Hitler who wish to control people.

I am a secular freedom loving person, who has lived for family, worked at a steady job for 50+ years, been married for 35+ years, never been arrested, I'm a Buddhist who strives to be kind to everyone. Your idea of secular ideology is incorrect and perhaps dangerous.

EdEarl Level 8 July 22, 2018

@Matias Oh, OK. I had not. Sorry.

1

"Can be dangerous"? yes - a bit like crossing the road on foot. Be careful.
Surely personal freedom allows you to make choices which are best for you and your relationships, unfettered by external rules.

0

Get a life we are in the aquarian age

1

Sorry, but l don't buy into that at all. ☺

4

Since the dawn of Homo sapiens, our species has always been on the move. Even without a commitment to so-called 'secular ideology,' (whatever that means) it is in our nature to venture out, take risks, abandon comfort and to wander.

@Matias The so-called 'recent' value of 'personal freedom' is a non sequitur, in that we all have it, and that it is as old as humankind!

6

As a person of African-American descent, I yearn for the day when my people will de-romanticize religion and end their relationship with the Christian church, which is the social mechanism that kept them in chains, in slavery, and in submission.

You are so right. I have often wondered why there are so few African atheist...in fact I wonder why there seem to be few women. It totally eludes me.

But then maybe that was the only way slaves had hope was for in the afterlife.

3

Quite often those relationships weren't one's best hope for fulfilment. I found much better, well, everything once I left the town I grew up in.

1

I think you are conflating "personal freedom" with civil liberty. Civil liberty is a moral notion only achievable in society with others and obedience to laws I give myself in accordance with the general will towards the common good. Where one chooses for all. Rousseau states:
"the impulsion of mere appetite is slavery, and obedience to a law one has prescribed to oneself is freedom." (Social Contract)

cava Level 7 July 21, 2018
0

I agree to a point. Still glad I am allowed to work, choose who I am with and not be owned by men. Oh yeah and post on Agnostic.com without real fear of persecution.

MsAl Level 8 July 21, 2018
1

I completely disagree. Everyone SHOULD focus solely on professional and personal fulfillment. You get one life. Live it for yourself and your dreams.

someone has to take care of the young, and it is not healthy for society, or even fair, for women to do it alone. Living for yourself is not only selfish, it rarely brings happiness.

@jenjen114 One might choose not to have children.

@jenjen114 wow. You sound bitter and angry. Sorry your choices sucked for you. Also, the point of life is not to poop out crotchfruit. That’s religious brainwashing “be fruitful and multiply” bullshit. Also, selfishness is a virtue. Everyone should take care of themselves and exercise personal responsibility in all things.

@SkotlandSkye not at all bitter and angry, but you are definitely a bitter and hateful person, to have responded as you did. Of course everyone isn't duty bound to have kids, but they have to be had in order for the human species to continue. For people to act like they should only care about themselves is stupid, and counter-productive to a good society.

@jenjen114 oh, you must be one of those people that need external validation for your existence. Ok then, there, there. You matter. LOL The only thing that makes me angry is when presumptuous asshats assume that people need to have sex trophies....LIKE YOU DID in your reply. Also, when they pretend to be more virtuous...you know, kinda how religious people claim to have the lock on morality and ethics.

@CoastRiderBill The brainwashing by patriarchal religions designed to keep women dependent on men is strong...people need to wake up. A woman's value as a person is NOT based on her uterus. Believing that the "human race needs to continue" is basically telling women that they have a "DUTY" to forego their own ambitions, dreams, and goals for the imaginary "good of society". It's all BULLSHIT. The earth is over-populated and dying. And women are STILL handing their daughters Barbie dolls instead of briefcases and telling them that it's ok to add nothing of value to the earth and instead just create more consumers to further destroy the natural world and add to global crisis. It's sickening.

3

That seems a little argumentum ad adsurdum. To take any ideology to an extreme is most likely not going to work for anyone. I think moderation of any ideal is key to living a healthy and beneficial life.

1

On what do you base this?

2

That one has options does not mean that one gives them primacy or even avails oneself of them. The important thing is that you're free to make your own decisions -- not the actual decisions you make (or don't).

So ... personal freedom does not in the general case lead to people being irresponsible or feckless.

Also ... if you force someone to stay with obligations against their will, it's fair to question whether that's even a good thing.

0

I don't think any ideology centered around just one thing is either healthy or stable.

You are pointing out that personal freedom is insufficient; I agree, and I think it's also worth pointing out that personal fulfillment, or being a part of a group or connection, are each insufficient, too.

But all three together? Vastly better.

Indeed, the practice of only one of each idea is worth little without the other two. And as you point out, two (freedom and fulfillment) can also be undercut without one (being part of something else).

Even these three values (all of which can be secular, and cover many great things), are not enough. For example, without a good process for finding truth, reality or the actions of others will come and destroy the first three without us knowing how to defend against it. Likewise, an ability to carry out such defense is required too. (I mean defense against harm in a very broad sense here, not necessarily by use of force in the traditional sense.)

Both of these additional values are themselves, I would suggest, implicit in you making this very statement. You are making a truth statement as a potential defense against harms you may have observed, so the statement is itself a laudable practice from the standpoint of those two values.

Furthermore, I have little doubt that these expanded five values miss other values of near-equal importance to living well.

All that said, I think your statement can be correct in some instances. And for those individuals suffering such loss due to wrong motivations, I find that regrettable.

Nevertheless, many people bear burdens through failing to act on knowledge or recognition of personal freedom and as such, have suffered much hurt and lost fulfillment, too.

Balance is never easy.

2

Your opinion is noted. There is no one size fits all for humanity.

2

Nah.

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