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The 4th Democratic Debate in Ohio

Different Media are declaring different winners ad losers. I was looking for some objective assessment and I finally found it on BBC. No surprise that BBC again is the best = [bbc.com]

NJ.com also has compiled a summary of what different media are saying here = [nj.com]

The consensus seems to be that Elizabeth Warren still continues to do a strong showing. Pete Buttigieg has always been a good talker but as Trump said Alfred E Newman will not be president. Buttigieg was running at the top at the DNC chairmanship also a few years ago. Bernie Sanders tried to look energetic and healthy but he is not electable either, no matter how much more hype and endorsements he can get.

Joe Biden is disintegrating and will be overtaken by Warren soon. Trump's bank account barely have $9 million left... lol. This gaffe machine will have to drop out of Presidential race for the 4th time now.

Ridiculously low polling Harris, Castro, O'Rourke, Gabbard, Klobuchar, Styer, and Yang should drop out now and not waste our time any more.

But here is what they are not talking about
We have seen 4 debates so far in 8 months and a lot of hot air of promises, promises and shiny dreams of Utopian expectations but nobody has explained this:

  1. How will you deliver anything if you cannot win both - the Senate and the House?
  2. If you are promising bold and grand ideas now, why the important infrastructure bill has not passed Congress for 11 years? Why is that?
  3. Can you deliver super healthcare, stricter gun control and beautiful women's rights with presidential decrees - executive orders?
  4. When are we going to talk about term limits on Senators and House representatives?
  5. Why do you have white glove premium healthcare for Congress members when people in the nation are dying without healthcare?
  6. Why should Congress and White House members' salaries and benefits not be on hold during a government shutdown?
St-Sinner 9 Oct 16
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6 comments

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I didn't see the debate. Only one thing I have time to bring up right now. I think I caught possibly very end like last seconds then some guys discussing and one made a very good point, Mr. Sanders needs to really improve his campaign strategy and his personal approach while debating, needs to come on stronger and get his message out there fully. He could really improve in this. I agree based on what I saw in previous debate.

I agree and think that Bernie Sanders should change his message, get a hair transplant but start with a freaking good hair cut before the debate at least, change name to John Smith and really run for a local office in Vermont. At 80, he will not be useful to even himself. I need a leader who has some gas left in him. The same applies to Joey Biden, the sleepy, frail and slow walker. These old and frail candidates for president are a freaking joke on 330 million great American people.

@St-Sinner No. Mr. Sanders doesn't need to change his hair. His hair is PERFECT. It gives him the appearance of being a genuine human being. He needs to be less nice. Like work on coaching the responses, keep drawing the focus back to overall message and critiquing others more. Isn't he same age as Trump? Oldest people are the smartest, well sometimes. Try again.

@Flowerwall
Trump is 20 times more energetic, looks fit, has a full head of golden hair, eats junk food and has not had a heart attack. Trump is no comparison for Bernie. Bernie looks older, bald and hunchback. His hair is not perfect. The guy does not get a hair cut before going on a national TV where the broadcast viewed internationally. This reality, not criticism. I don't want a professor from Weird Science to be my president, I want somebody who looks good and can be a leader of the only super power and of the free world in 2021 and on. I am terribly worried about all these things about Bernie and thankfully all signs point to he not being electable.

I have a better plan than what you have suggested. Why not hand over the torch to the new generation and mentor new young leaders like Cortez and others? Create a movement, get more candidates elected who think like him but not look like him? He can do that from a retirement home in Vermont after giving money back to honest hard working people who have given him millions.

@St-Sinner You don't want the look of Professor of Weird Science, but you WANT the look of American oligarchic ostentation? C'mon I think it's a dated look, way passed it's time. Reminds me of the show Dynasty from the 1980's. And we NEED some Professor of Weird Science to get us out of this horrific mess of complete loss of sanity that is in existence right now in government. Some Professor of Weird Science that takes us to a future where we return back to a state of normalcy and improved moral values.

Just listening to a talk today where speaker states we are in Cold War 2.0. This is an infinite war that can never end, only players will change. Our greatest asset as Americans has always been moral values. That is how we win. (Or win, win, as it should be.) Without them we are lost. At this point in history it is absolutely 100% neccessary to reflect and reaffirm our moral values.

Incidentally, just also read today Washington DC is looking at decriminalizing prostitution. City council is reviewing this week Thursday according to article. Which to me this is not a good sign at all of where we are at in terms of moral values. I would never view the capital of this great nation as being THAT place. It almost appears as the final chapter of a book where those who began with the intention of being virtuous devolved into higher and higher levels of moral transgressions until their humanity was completely lost. Let's hope not!

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i didn't see the debate yesterday -- and unlike the other gatherings it actually did somewhat resemble a debate -- as a matter of winning or losing. i saw it as a matter of trying to clarify positions, which is useful despite the fact that those positions will be tempered by whatever the next congress does. therefore i take declarations of who lost and who won with about a pound of salt. i know who said what i wanted to hear, and said it convincingly. i also know something about the candidates beyond what they said last night. warren, for example, is my choice, but i don't think she defended medicare for all as effectively as she could have. no matter; i understand the defense and will defend it for her if necessary! she still has my vote in the primary. whoever wins the nomination has my vote in the general. it's that simple.

g

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There you go inserting your personal opinion where the BBC was clear. I disagree that Bernie is unelectable, in fact in all polls he beats Trump. Warren is also great. Calling Buttigieg Alfred E. Newman does not help to show objectivity in your personal POV. The media will push for centrists, been there done that woth Hillary., this country needs strong progeessive ideas no lukewarm crap.

I was mentioning looking for objective news. But of course I am not objective, in fact I have very strong opinions in politics. I am not a reporter or a journalist or a panelist.

I believe in everything I wrote because I am very sure that Buttigieg or Bernie will not be elected.

@St-Sinner just because you believe it doesn't make it true.

@Mofo1953 Correct. That is why I said it is my opinion.

But I feel comfortable with my political savvy in reading into the events. I went wrong only in 2016 although I personally was put off by Hillary Clinton and was wishing that voters would put her in her place. I was right about Michael Dukakis, John Kerry, Bill Clinton (2 times), Bush 2 times, (similar to Hillary, Al Gore was a turn off) and Obama 2 times. I bet 3 times on VP choices in 3 elections and won the bets.

@St-Sinner where in the original post did you say it was your opinion?

@Mofo1953
Whatever is not followed by a link, is all my opinion, BS or "unmatched wisdom."

@St-Sinner we're going on circles again, my original comment to your original post says it all. Your original post mentioned different media and then you subrepticiously include your pov, which only to you is savvy, to most people here commenting is quite the opposite of savvy, although you are entitled to opine, wrong as you may be.

@Mofo1953
Yes I agree that most of what I wrote is my opinion except the two site links I gave you of an example of objective reporting. Both sides lay out what happened. I believe m views are based on reading both sides of the media - conservative and progressive. I call it savvy because I have seen during the elections since 1986 that I have been right mostly.

Now what you can a problem with is the bitter facts about Bernie. You will not like that Bernie is a bad messenger, a bad candidate and will not be elected because you like him. Progressives also do not like the fact that Trump has been good a on few things in spite of being bad on many fronts because they are hard core progressives and only continue reading the progressive media. But in both cases, the facts on the ground are different from what you believe in.

@St-Sinner aha, your slup is showing. Trumper in disguise. Don't waste my time with your opinions, which are not what the majority of America says in all polls. But you, as Trump, always know better. Puhleeze!

@Mofo1953

This is what I think of Trump. You can judge and compare with what you think of him.

Trump is bad for many many things but he is good at many things as well. There are things Trump has done that most Democratic and Republican presidents did not do for decades.

Bad Things

  1. High Nepotism
  2. Appointing and promoting children in privileged government positions
  3. Lying
  4. Immorality
  5. Going around the rules
  6. Colluding with dictators and not supporting righteous causes around the world
  7. Possibly advancing selfish and private business interests using his offices
  8. Super narcissism
  9. Not standing up for Hong Kong protesters' rights
  10. Pretending to be a religious person - he was never religious
  11. Tax cuts to the rich

Good Things

  1. Strict and swift actions against illegal immigration
  2. Removing DACA protections
  3. His fight to get funding for the border wall
  4. Dropping out of Paris climate change accord
  5. Making NATO members to pay up their contributions
  6. Standing up to China's trade bullying and currency manipulation, not just whining
  7. Bold trade tariffs and making countries negotiate better trade agreements
  8. Taking away preferred trade country status - India for example
  9. Reducing ridiculous regulations
  10. A very effective campaigner and debater
  11. Not speaking politically correct
  12. Revolutionizing White House communication from daily briefing to Twitter - a direct communication with the people and taking the power away from the huge media moguls and empires to filter out what the White House said and did not say.

@St-Sinner what you consider good things are all terrible and many made up only in his mind.

@Mofo1953
Good things pitched badly, funded badly and thrown at wrong places and wrong times - are terrible. If there was anything really good here, it would be riding Bernie Sanders on cloud 9 and at the top with he smashing Trump.... and opponents in every poll, however, after 2 bad presidential elections runs and struggling at the 3rd position in the second run.

None of the signs are pointing to anything good. What are you talking about? Call it crazy, not good.

@St-Sinner we shall see.

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“Bernie Sanders...is not electable...” is a popular sentiment from pundits in the DNC and mainstream media, who fight tooth and nail to keep him from becoming president and removing their stranglehold on power. His policies are the most popular with the electorate, and Warren is doing her best to appropriate them, although her versions all retain capitalist/for-profit components.

This is a sentiment 'only' among Bernie Sanders supporters. I believe it is not true. There are several reasons why Bernie will not be elected. The initial polls of general elections don't mean much. Hillary was beating Donald Trump by 30 points even in early and mid 2016, Nancy Pelosi, DNC Chairwoman pundits ... all said Trump would not be president based on the polls at the time.

Bernie's policies are an Utopian dream, taxing the rich for give things to others is a bad idea from the getgo and will never pass, Bernie will not have a solid majority in Senate and the House, America is not Sweden or Norway, America is not progressive, America is a capitalist country still controlled by the rich and powerful, it will never be even close to being lightly socialist and his demographic of being old and Jewish and reasons for why he will not be elected. I am going to bet that he will not be even nominated.

What Bernie is promising will not happen through a democratic election. It is possible with a revolution when people can come out in the streets and overthrow the current authorities and take control by force. But Bernie is not that charismatic leader who people will follow. He is popular only among the far left fringes. He is not a revolution material.

@St-Sinner Every candidate's supporter believes their's is the electable one. This is not a Bernie phenomenon. As you wrote, many believed Trump to be unelectable. Electability is nothing more than a political construct designed to bolster or suppress support for one candidate or another. I look at Bernie's rallies in 2015/16 and these days, and I see young people rallying behind him. Worrying about support for Congress is a non-starter because Congress is in the same corporate pocketbooks as most of the presidential candidates - Republican and Democrats alike.

As for America being a capitalist country "never be even close to being lightly socialst" - look to the most popular programs of our time. They ALL are socialist programs, from our interstate road system to Social Security and Medicare. The labels are a smokescreen. The programs themselves are real, effective, and popular.

You have your opinions, but they are just that. We all have our own and all are equally legitimate.

@Bobbyzen
Social security, post office would not happen in today's environment. Universal healthcare would have happened in the times of FDR.

You are right that these are opinions.I like some candidates, Pete Buttigieg the most. he is very articulate and thoughtful. He has hands on administrative experience. But I am not a fanatic and blind supporter of any candidate. I am pragmatic. Electability is very important now. If you are not electable, your fancy, shiny, beautiful plans, policies and promises are down the drain. I know Buttigeg will not even get the nomination, let alone be elected.

As for Bernie Sanders, I think "Not Electable" is written all over him to a practical person seeing from outside. But any love - for a lover, leader, hero... is blind. Bernie supporters are passionate and will not listen even to realities on the ground.

@St-Sinner Expanded social programs are popular among the electorate. It's Republican and neo-liberal politicians, who have a power and financial stake in the status quo, who scare the electorate into shying away from them. Hillary supporters were the most toxic in demonizing Medicare for All, because she said it could never happen. Of course she was playing to her donors, but dragged voters into the gutter while denying the most basic of human rights to all. Note the Kaiser Foundation's study on how language and framing affects public opinion. Let's stop looking for excuses to continue the decline of America into third-world status, and instead look for ways we can support and lift each other up.

@Bobbyzen
All you said here and just conspiracy theories. Nobody outside the Bernie campaign talks about it and voters don't care. Winners win, don't whine.

But one thing you will not admit that the messenger is worse than the message in the campaign.

Pete Buttigieg has better policies and pragmatic approaches in his campaign but we all know that Buttigieg is unelectable. The messenger is the problem.

@St-Sinner It is your opinion that Pet Buttigieg has better policies. Buttigieg's "Medicare for All Who Want It" is another way to keep the current for-profit system intact while continuing to hurt 10s of millions of Americans.Please don't force your opinions down my throat. I'm presenting evidence - not a conspiracy theory - that the majority of Americans support universal health care coverage, and that the way it is framed is what negatively impacts their opinions.

@Bobbyzen

What Pete Buttigieg is proposing is what is doable, not an Utopia like Bernie's that will never materialize. Just pipe dreams.If anybody thinks that the United States, the most capitalist country controlled by the rich and powerful, a religious and conservative nation will allow extreme socialist government programs in today's environment must be smoking something of a very bad quality.

I think that all plans, policies are so unnecessary. All are sounding like a academic discussions in a classroom. Not one leader in the pack is charismatic. The main and most important ingredient and that is missing. Plans and policies do get elected, charismatic candidates do. Obama at this stage in 2008 was already catching fire across the nation. He got people excited. This is Bernie's second run. He started at the top and is now sliding to 3. And then the heart attack. Who knows where he will be in 2 months. There is only so much life you can put into a campaign with endorsements.

A candidate only needs a vision, a broad vision and fire up the nation with his or her leadership. Not one in the lineup of the crowded pack of freaking 22 candidates has it. There are experts, nerds and bureaucrats in Washington to prepare plans and prepare bills for Congress.

@St-Sinner My guess is you’re not among the 10’s of millions who live without access to affordable healthcare. And you choose to protect what you have. The rest of us are prepared to fight the establishment. Power cedes nothing without a fight.

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Thanks for the analysis

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In my opinion, there are no winners or losers in this type of "debate". Candidates are just expressing their views on political topics for all to know and hopefully understand so informed and rational decisions can be made. Winners and losers are determined in the primaries and ultimately in the general election.

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