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April 6, 2020: Vaccination Ruminations.

California has been in lockdown for three weeks now. We might still be under stay-at-home orders three weeks hence. In fact, it might even be longer. When restrictions are eventuality relaxed, we will probably be under some level of cautionary protocols for the foreseeable future; at least until an effective vaccine against COVID-19 is developed, approved, and widely administered.

Most people recognize the benefits of vaccination. Most, but not all. There are some who believe that vaccines, rather than offer protection from diseases, actually cause them.

To be clear: there is no evidence that vaccines cause harm. On the contrary, they are recognized and documented to have saved countless lives, and to have staved off unimaginable suffering. (How many people do you know who have been stricken with polio? I'll bet the number is zero!)

Refusal to be vaccinated is not uncommon among fundamentalist religious communities such as Orthodox Jews and Evangelical Christians. Predictably, these groups also tend to suffer higher-than-average rates of mortality from contagious diseases like measles and influenza.

Death rates from infectious disease among "anti-vaxers" would probably be even higher were it not for the protection we all gain from "herd immunity."

Herd immunity is achieved when a sufficient proportion of a population is inoculated against a particular pathogen, driving infection rates so low that the probability of exposure becomes slight  across the whole group.

In the short term, a given community may suffer more for not vaccinating, but over the long term they might actually be better preparing themselves for a looming catastrophe.

Fundamentalist religious groups tend to be fairly insular, with marriages and production of offspring  occurring almost exclusively within the group.

A small, isolated gene pool can respond very quickly to natural selection. If a small, insular community has regular exposure to a deadly pathogen, individuals with lower natural resistance will die. Individuals with genes that confer higher resistance tend to survive and pass on their good DNA to the next generation. Over time, the group can evolve more resistance to the pathogen.

The gene pool of a group that protects itself through vaccination is never really tested; the proportion of individuals with low natural resistance may be quite high.

As long as the modern health care system continues to function, the vaccinated population can thrive. But in a situation where vaccines and other life support systems are absent, they might suffer stunning losses. Consider the population decline that occurred among First Nations populations when smallpox was first introduced into North America.

Given where we are today, with an atmosphere already a full degree Celsius higher in temperature, and accelerating global greenhouse gas production, it may be prudent to consider the wholesale collapse of civilization not as a distant possibility but as an increasingly likely eventuality.

If or when civilization does collapse, the production and administration of vaccines will probably cease to occur. Under these conditions, the insular group that with a history of non-vaccination might suddenly have a survival advantage.

Isn't it ironic that a group that rejects the science underpinning vaccines (and, in some cases, that of climate change as well), and does not believe in biological evolution, may be in the process of evolving greater ability to survive  future environmental catastrophe (whose anthropomorphic origin they likely also reject)?

Of course, nothing is certain. It could be that the real-time losses in the anti-vax community might put them at such a disadvantage that no future evolutionary edge could compensate. Who knows what gifts of talent in art, science, engineering, communications, leadership, etc., are never realized when someone dies for lack of a vaccine?

And who knows if or to what degree the insular community will remain isolated? Given the human predilection for rambling and roving, chances are good that the isolated gene pool could become diluted. If that turns out to be the case, what benefit from  the historical losses could be claimed?

Given the known benefits of vaccination, and all the uncertainties associated with not vaccinating, it seems that vaccination is probably the best way to go. IMHO. What do you think?

Flyingsaucesir 8 Apr 7
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6 comments

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And yet, Trump changes the rules to let in seasonal workers without testing and without interviews.
This is to appease big-ag execs.

Stupid is as stupid does.

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Ummmmm, did you forget the part about how 4 or 5 out of 6 children died of smallpox, cholera, typhoid, and etc. Before vaccines?

No, I did not forget. See paragraph eleven ☺

@Flyingsaucesir ummm, no children's mortality rate mentioned, maybe because your entire post presupposes somehow they will get immunity instead of massively succumbing to diseases like they always did, before vaccinations?

@AnneWimsey

Paragraph 11: "...Consider the population decline that occurred among First Nations populations when smallpox was first introduced into North America."

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Vaccination for sure. I don’t see any legitimate reason not to.

As for your thought that an unvaccinated population might have an advantage, I just don’t see it. The idea def has merit because that’s how population genetics work. However, For this current virus the death rate seems too low to me to have an impact in less than a few generations. Plus the fact that humans are constantly screwing people from ‘other’ groups leads me to believe there’d be enough mingling to disperse both immunity and susceptibility in both populations.

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A small, isolated gene pool can respond very quickly to natural selection.” That is not my understanding. With a limited gene pool and little diversity, their ‘options’ are extremely limited. With a diverse gene pool, there’s far more a chance someone will possess the combination allowing for survival.

Since their ‘sects’ are so limited, like the Amish, their group would likely drop faster than those having married/ reproduced across distant lines. Not all, or most of such offspring would likely survive ... but ‘the one’ that does would send it’s genes forward. Not the Amish..

Varn Level 8 Apr 7, 2020

Good point. Obviously there has to be some diversity in the small group to begin with. And we see that indeed there is. In the recent documented cases of measles hitting the Orthodox Jewish communities of upstate New York, a few deaths occurred, and there were also survivors. Some individuals must have had natural resistance, while others did not. Over the longer term (over many generations), the development of even greater resistance would occur through selection of new mutations.

@Leontion
No I don't have data showing more survivors among the anti-vaxers. Nor would I expect any at this time. All I am saying is that over generations the population could evolve to become more resistant. Anyway, I was only using the recent cases of measles in New York as an example of an insular group refusing vaccination. The particular pathogen in merely incidental.

We know that there is natural variation in human immune systems. It would be on these differences that any selection would act. Natural variations that confer greater ability to defeat an infection could result from mutations that affect either the adaptive or innate immune systems, or even some other biochemical mechanism that we can only imagine.

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Yup, anti vaxxers are going to triumph in a time of pandemics & lack of care........ROFLMAO!

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I'm sorry, but I fail to see how an insular group with a history of non-vaccination could possibly have an advantage, even in the event of societal collapse. Even supposing that they do evolve natural immunity to what they are exposed to, that falls apart the minute an outsider enters.

In the initial years, certainly the vaccinated would have the advantage, as we do now, but perhaps more so. As it stands now, the unvaccinated still have available other medicines that mitigate the effects of any disease they do catch. Absent those medicines, they would be easy prey to anything they caught.

I have yet to see any community that is so insular that it isn't exposed to infectious disease. Even the extremely religious, who only socialize with each other, can still be seen out and about from time to time. But could they isolate so thoroughly that they would have NO contact with the outside world?

To do so, they would either need to be so well-armed and well-fortified that they could withstand any attack...or they would have to be so remote that the rest of us didn't even know of their existence. But neither state could last forever.

Indeed! Just look at the Native American tribal population, and how they have fared against epidemics of all kinds, ever since first contact with Europeans. They may have a rough time of it with COVID-19.
[washingtonpost.com]

@p-nullifidian that’s kinda silly. The reason native Americans were so severely affected by euro diseases is because they had never encountered them before. Since this corona virus is novel NO ONE has encountered it before. I see zero reason to think native Americans or any other group would fare better or worse than any other group.

@JacobMeyers There has been a study (not yet peer reviewed) that showed that some blood types were more susceptible than others. Blood type A (which I am) was found to be more susceptible, whereas blood type O (which most native Americans are, or at least were,) was the least susceptible.

So, this time native Americans may fare better than average (barring other confounding factors, anyway.)

@AmyTheBruce interesting. I have no formal (not even high school) biology training so I don’t know what to make of it.

@JacobMeyers Whether it is genetics or environment that is behind their susceptibility to disease, Native Americans were disproportionately affected by the Spanish flu pandemic 100 years ago, and are at greater risk than other populations this time around.
[washingtonpost.com]

@p-nullifidian I read it. But the rest of the world had great experience with influenza while native Americans did not. It just does not seem the same as this time around no group has experience with it. Unless you’re of pangolin ancestry(just a joke don’t shoot me)

I do understand other factors that might cause susceptibility on various reservations though. Same thing is gonna cause issues with some of the hollows down south.

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