You got that right. I wish I had realized that years ago rather than a matter of months ago.

no thank you

@RoboGraham Libertarians represent the antithesis of a common good. I’ll take, for example, a Consumer Protection Agency, an OSHA, and an EPA—if their regulations had teeth and the funding and power of enforcement—to protect consumers from fraud and shitty products, to protect workers from dangerous employer practices, and to protect the environment from polluters.

@Bobbyzen

Yup, we shouldn't have to sacrifice all of that just to get a sane drug policy which will cease the large scale incarceration of nonviolent offenders.

It is possible for citizens to have these sorts of freedoms and for society to also have a reasonable government that provides necessary regulations. We just have to stop voting for the wrong leaders.

@Bobbyzen The function of those agencies could be performed as well or better at the state or local level, or by private companies.

The constitution does not provide for federal control of every aspect of our lives. The regulation of interstate commerce has been interpreted to mean the regulation of everything.

@WilliamFleming None of what I offered has anything to do with “control of our lives”, unless you consider regulating, for example, manufacturers’ products to be safe as “control of our lives,” in which case there’s no sense in continuing this discussion. If you are interested, I’ll offer one, classic example: Baby cribs. It was governmental health and consumer agencies in the 1950s that found crib design led to injuries, suffocation, and death if there was a) too much space between the mattress and sideboards, or b) the wrong amount of space between the vertical posts for babies’ heads to stick through. Imagine without regulations and enforcement, or giving a private corporation with an interest in a profitable industry and without legal enforcement authority (or worse, with legal authority), spending the money to collect data, perform research, and retool to manufacture safe cribs. We know that self-regulation is antithetical to profits, which is why government has a responsibility to protect the general welfare. I could offer examples from every industry where government regulations and enforcement protect our health and save lives.I can also give too many examples of disastrous outcomes where we’ve privatized oversight.

@Bobbyzen It is the responsibility of the manufacturer to present a safe product, and it is certainly not in their best interest for their products to cause death. But there are state laws that criminalize manslaughter or negligent homicide. There is also the tort system for getting compensation. These days there are online consumer watchdog groups that keep the public informed. In addition to all that, state agencies could regulate as well or better than federal agencies. But yes, regulation of some sort is needed.

There are multiple examples of where government overreach has resulted in unnecessary delay and expense in the production of goods and services. There are many many government requirements that render products almost unusable. It’s downright kafkaesque

Yes, products should be safe to use, but despite all efforts there will occasionally be an accident. There needs to be a balance, but I don’t think bureaucrats understand balance and efficiency. Long-term overall good is not in their vocabulary. It’s not just federal bureaucracy. The bureaucratic mindset is rampant even in some private companies.

Is this you finally coming out of your closet So, mythical mystical woo, pushing libertarianism to boot? Clear as mud!

@Varn If that seems unclear it’s only because you are thinking in stereotypes and making unwarranted generalizations. There’s absolutely no contradiction in having an interest in metaphysical ideas and in being a libertarian. Both in fact involve an independent mind-set and courageous thinking and speaking.

I’m glad you came back because before I forgot to mention that on this very forum there’s a Religious Naturalism group, and also a group called Dharma Cafe.

It takes all types to make up a real forum.

@WilliamFleming My “unwarranted generalizations” come from a lifetime of having paid very close attention.. As far as your “metaphysical ideas” and being “a libertarian” … neither jive with reality, but do (finally) explain your unclear rambling posts

Again, I believe our sign-in requirement was that we be either Atheists or Agnostics - here to push “metaphysical ideas” does not fit my definition of either.. Politics, fine, but prerequisites first ~

@Varn And again, there are no such sign-in requirements.
You can not make me leave.

@WilliamFleming Paranoid Don’t flatter yourself ...I’m just pointing you out. And no one’s posted the verbatim sign-in question I vaguely recall ..from three years ago, including you

@Varn Point me out all you like. I am very open with my opinions and you are one of the few who seems to object. Ha, ha. I’ve been varnished. It’s quite an honor it seems to be varnished.

You can wait ‘til doomsday but that sign-in question will never be posted because it doesn’t exist.

@WilliamFleming You are not ‘very open with your opinions.’ They’ve remained opaque, for good reason. Actually, I’ve not noticed your stuff receiving enough attention to respond to … thus your shallow attempts to stay in contact with me.

The ‘sign in’ question in question can not be found by those the site already recognizes. But the good thing is - folks, including myself, now recognize you

Absolutely. Taking money from them I'm sure influences his stance on this issue. And taking money from the insurance companies influences his stance on healthcare reform.

If we don't bash our leaders when they deserve and are in need of a bashing, we will never have decent leaders.

I’m not concerned for my survival, rather the survival of the millions harmed by decades of Democrats’ policies that decimated the lower and middle classes. I am a lifelong Democrat who has probably been more active in the Party than those who debase us for demanding far more of Democrats.

@RoboGraham, @Bobbyzen There we go -- Exhibits A & B ~

@Varn Glib but way off the mark. You’re not paying attention to what we’re saying.

@Bobbyzen

He never does. This guy is as hard headed as they come. And proud of it.

@RoboGraham Imagine if millions of @Varn’s demanded more of Biden’s campaign. Not to bash him but to help him defeat Trump. “When I am president, I vow to shut down Trump’s immoral, deadly immigration detention camps.” Wouldn’t that be an energizing message to mobilize voters, unlike the passive, proven-to-lose “I’m not Trump” platform...

@Bobbyzen

Exactly, they could exert a great deal of influence for good causes but instead they remain blindly loyal and obedient.

@RoboGraham, @Bobbyzen Logic, history, or entertaining some with a long (long) list of reasons doesn’t change small minds.. You lack courage, the ability to get along or connect with the majority that is humanity, and likely never will - I can’t help either of you there.

A life Atheist, make that, Active Atheist, I’ve definitely met those incapable of getting along with others.. Purists, or at least exhibiting behavior on the Autism spectrum ..they just don’t fit. So, we work around them, as with you.

Your agendas, though never clearly stated.. simply feed the voter-apathy machine that runs full-time on propagandist media networks ..until it’s time to spark the votes of their minions. Problem is - nothing will ever make things right for you -- and your ability to do the best with what’s available appears nonexistent..

You want to fight, but don’t fully understand, for what? Or, when to get along.. I’m not seeing exhibited deep political strategy or incite, either ... just the rehashing of your laundry list of perceived slights. In other words, you show no growth, or (as mentioned) ability to do more than detract. How can I help?

@Varn

As always, VainVarn fails to grapple with the subject being discussed.

The point brought up was that if you and others like you were to actually put pressure on the democratic leaders and advocate for good causes, that influence could actually make a difference. Your response is the same old pompous insults that you always dish out.

We get along with most people just fine. It seems that you are the one have difficulties getting on with others due to your abrasive personality. Your disingenuous offer to help is nothing but condescending concern trolling and your accusation of us showing no growth is a projection of your own stiff ideology and blind loyalty to a party that consistently fails to learn from it's mistakes.

@Varn You lack courage, the ability to get along or connect with the majority that is humanity, and likely never will - I can’t help either of you there.

It doesn’t take courage to connect with the majority. It’s the opposite: Throughout history, every significant change that improved the lives of the poor and workers and black and immigrant community has been won by standing with those most impacted by corporate and racist policies.

@Bobbyzen

Varn thinks he's so brave and admirable by going with the flow of the mainstream. As if there is anything courageous about being a lackey of the establishment.

@Varn

“@RoboGraham, @Bobbyzen There we go -- Exhibits A & B ~”

Please don’t leave me out, Varn. Hi, my name is “C”.

@skado

How could he forget about C? It's his favorite letter.

@skado Partially noted. Your post & run stuff is garbage, by the way. Care attempting to flesh anything out, or continue to rely on a handful of misfits … who’s crap is not worth responding to

@Varn

Try and flesh something out? You are notorious for not fleshing things out. You refuse to get into anything substantive.

@Varn
You’re my favorite Varn, Varn.

@skado So I’ve this ‘red bell alert’ that informs me “Sudoku Replied to your comment” - No, he didn’t. Sadly, he can’t. What he can do is link & run, though

@Varn
How did you get so friendly, Varn? Did you take lessons or something?

@skado Really? More nothing..? Save that crap for facebook

@Varn

When you are closed minded and dismissive of what people say to you, they learn it's better not to say anything real in response to you.

You do seem slightly friendlier than I remember you being. Did you read a self help book?

@skado @RoboGraham @Bobbyzen

I see you guys have been “varnished”.

@WilliamFleming

That's one way to put it.