Agnostic.com

10 0

I understand protesting is part of democracy. However, burning down buildings and destroying statues is illegal. Should protesters be allowed to tear down statues (which don't belong to them) and blocking highways be permitted?

Grecio 7 June 29
Share

Enjoy being online again!

Welcome to the community of good people who base their values on evidence and appreciate civil discourse - the social network you will enjoy.

Create your free account

10 comments

Feel free to reply to any comment by clicking the "Reply" button.

0

Is white privilege a real thing?
What can we do ti fix the racial problems? Does the federal Government need to pay all black people money for reparation? How much? $100,000 per person? Would that be enough? American taxpayers are all colors of people. What is it that the rioters want besides freedom from racist police?

0

Has anyone seen the videos of the black militia marching on Stone Mountain, Ga??

1

Protesters, just protest

Arsonists, burn buildings
Vandals, destroy property

There will usually be someone in the crowd trying to taint the protests. Don't be surprised, that is what they are there for, to try to cause it to fail.

2

Blocking highways: no.
Tearing down statues of Jefferson Davis, Robert E. Lee, Stonewall Jackson, and other racist traitors: yes.

Our heritage, good-bad-right-wrong... It is still our heritage. Those soldiers fought for what they believed in. I had kin that died in the Civil War. To disgrace their names is a disgrace to me. Where do people get the idea to tear down George Washington, Abe Lincoln? Christopher Columbus? Reely??

@Grecio No not George Washington or Abraham Lincoln. Christopher Columbus, for sure. Confederate politicians and soldiers, definitely. That heritage, of slavery and treason, is a pretty crappy 'heritage,' and is best ridiculed or, better yet, forgotten. (Or is it vice versa?)

@Storm1752 Who decides what was good in our history and what was bad? Do we have to erase everything that more than 2 years old? There have been slaves for millennia in most countries in the world. While the holocaust was one of the worst deeds in the history of the world (understatement) the worst happening was the killing of over 400,000 indigenous natives living in North and South America. These people were all but wiped out by the English, Spanish, and French.
I think the desire to tear down statues is mostly a symptom of people being tired of police brutality, unequal distribution of wealth, and the realization that young people will have to work for a living.

@Grecio They shouldn't have to work for a living, right? Protesting all day every day is a much better use of their time, I'm sure you agree. And yours was a perfectly serious comment, one I'm responding to with the utmost amount of respect.

@Storm1752 Many protesters and rioters are young white citizens. Protesting police racism and brutality might be in order. However, Rioting, burning, and killing should never be allowed, of course.
I think many young people have realized that they will have to work and earn a living, and they are having trouble facing it. Add the Covid-19 to the mix of discomfort and we have a powder keg.
Recently, I attended what was supposed to be a BLM protest and the tearing down of a statue in my state. I got there early. Soon, 25 civilians showed-up toting guns. The protesters never appeared that day. I wonder what would have happened if some protesters showed-up and even a few had guns. That could have been a bad scene for our community, state, and nation.
Contributing to this mess is social media and the news. Of course, social media improves the nation's and the world's communication. However, we are communicating with hate as well as love.

@Storm1752 With all due respect, the confederates were fighting for much more than slavery. Slavery is supported by the Bible. Most southerners were Christians (as is still the case).
It amazes me that millions of black people are very strong Christians despite the Bible being pro-slavery. Jesus is supposed to have said, "do not beat your slaves until you break their teeth."
Modern Christians don't go by that now, they will claim that Jesus lived in a different time, or that the scripture is anecdotal. Most bad parts of the Bible are claimed by modern Christians to be anecdotal.

@Grecio I just think slavery was and is wrong; if you don't think so, fine. The Civil War WAS about slavery. Of course there were ancillary issues, but they could have and probably would have been settled peacefully. The "heritage" of slavery is a disgrace, in my opinion. The fact many men died to uphold it means nothing to me. They died for an unjust cause. This is my opinion. Now please take it as such. Read the 'Cornerstone Speech' by Confederate Vice President Stephens delivered in 1861 in Savannah, Georgia if you don't believe slavery was based on the mistaken notion blacks are subhuman, inferior, and therefore are deserving of subjugation. ARE they inferior? Even if you think so (do you?) they are STILL human being and not cattle.
Anyway, lots of Germans died believing in and fighting for the Nazi cause...it's weird you brought that up, since it hardly bolsters your point. I'm sure you don't believe they died heroic deaths in defense of a noble cause!
I can't believe I'm feeling forced to state such obvious truths, to someone who should know better.

@Storm1752 We can't expect that people who lived 150 years ago would have the same outlook and historical background that we have now.

@Grecio We don't live 150 years ago.

2

US troops tore down statues of Saddam Hussein in Iraq. The police block highways when they set up roadblocks. Are you protesting the acts? Or whether they are "legal" or not?

US troops are not from Iraq.

1

So is killing innocent people. It should have not come to this. But they refused to uphold the law and the statues are not alive.

2

No, the decision belongs to those who own the statue. Those who take illegal actions must be prosecuted if laws are to mean anything.

If taking the law into ones own hands is justified then lynchings are justified.

when someone, some organization, or city etc. owns a statue on display in a public place that represents a memorial to racism or some other evil, it should come down or be moved to another more appropriate venue. if that owner refuses to recognize its offensive nature and initiate its immediate removal i argue that they've relinquished thier responsibilities to the public space and fellow citizenry. i say tear it down. at worst those responible should be given no more than a slap on the wrist.
on the other hand, lynching is murder.

6

The Boston Tea Party was illegal, too..

Varn Level 8 June 29, 2020

That is not anywhere near the violence we are seeing.

@Grecio We weren’t united - then divided, yet ~

@Varn point taken

2

could be that's the only time folks pay attention and things get done or changed. unfortunate.

I wonder if we can have enough discussion to solve the racial problems? How long ago were the Furgeson riots? We might think that after that there would be a lot of dialogs to see that things like that don't happen again. However, here we are years later, worse off than before. I wonder if American citizens don't like discussing racial problems? If we discuss the problems, then we admit that there is a problem, and somebody sitting at the table is a racist. Nobody knows how to solve the racial problems and science doesn't seem to be able to help at this point.

@Grecio it's not a science thing very much. I think mostly white folks need to get educated. then perhaps dialogue could be of some use. until white folks get some education about it it's just going to lead to more frustration for white folks and black folks. I listened to this yesterday on NPR. made a lot of sense. here's an article about it with the recording of the show in it. "here and now" is the name of the npr show. [amp.wbur.org]

@hankster I watched the video and it makes a lot of sense. The problem, it seems, is that white people living in 2020 have to admit that they have held blacks down when all blacks attend the same schools, have been given special treatment, and extra money and still there is no equalization of achievement. I would have to ask, is there a different culture, especially in the south (USA) where a black has difficulty achieving in modern society?

@Grecio it's hard to say that there hasn't been improvements in achievement. that's an assumption. if desegregation had never happened it could be worse. it's not a recent problem. thinking that racial problems are going to be solved within one generationor two or three is folly. thinking that racial problems is a southern matter is folly. that kind of thinking just perpetuates the stereotypes. it's going to take time. the best we can hope for in our lifetimes is that would try to get it on the right track as a country. we might could see some improvements. but I'm skeptical true equality will be something we will see.

@hankster I am already 68 years. I am afraid that I will not see equality in my lifetime. You are right, of course, perhaps we might see a light at there end of the tunnel in our lifetime.

@Grecio that would be the best we could hope for I'm afraid. the nation has dug a pretty deep hole.

@hankster Whiter folks being educated isn't the problem.

@Grecio I disagree. I think it's a huge part of the problem.

@hankster How do we educate? Emotions and history are involved. What do you propose?

@Grecio if a citizen cares enough, they could learn. they could at least try. if they're not too stuck, if their heart and mind is still flexible enough to absorb new information and question thier assumptions. they've had bias drilled into them by the culture of privelidge or even underprivilege depending on what side of the tracks you grew up on so to speak. it's an enormously complex the difficult issue. I'm no expert but I do try to pay attention.

@hankster Well said.

6

Yes, when we have a whole race, several races really, is oppressed we need a revolution. It's only property and people are more important. The statues depict oppressors, they never should have existed in the first place.

And now they want to take down Mt. Rushmore too.

@gemini1947 good. mt. rushmore is a disgrace.

@hankster They should turn it into Geronimo and Chief Joseph..."I will fight no more forever"
Sitting Bull, Osceola, or Ouray.

@gemini1947 I'm good with whatever the Native Americans want to do with it.

@hankster Yeah... Whos country was it before Columbus "discovered" it?

@gemini1947 I don't know that anyone claimed ownership. seems like it was much more respected though.

@hankster If the Native Americans would have told the "discoverers" to go back where they came from, like so many folks now are telling others, It would be a whole different world today. Maybe they should do away with Thanksgiving too.

@gemini1947 let's not get carried away. Thanksgiving is the best eating day of the year.

@hankster Yeah, we had better not go there. I am making burritos for supper. 🙂

@gemini1947 [crazyhorsememorial.org]

@gemini1947 Yea, look what happened to the American Indian, Boy, did they have a terrible immigration policy.

@gemini1947 I think the invention of guns and gunpowder had an influence. A lot of things determine our history. Things like accidents, dictators, history, science, and evolution. We think we can control all of that, but we can't. Science and religion cannot protect us from being a planet flying into oblivion with bacteria and viruses living on it. If we don't destroy ourselves, nature will. Perhaps that is the course of our universe. Our planet is not special, it is just like most other planets. We think we are special because there is life on our planet. But is life so special? Stephen Hawkins said people are basically "pond scum". He might be right.

@hankster Mt. Rushmore is our heritage. Whether the people were good or bad, is not the point. The fact is, that is what happened and that is our history. The USA is no not Iraq.

@Grecio I think that's a ridiculous viewpoint. perhaps Our Heritage can be that "we changed". perhaps Our Heritage could be that "we apologized". new history has to be made don't it? that history will be in the books, but there's no reason except false Pride in the mistakes we made, to keep hanging on to it.

@hankster You make a good point. I don't know the answer. Do we preserve what actually happened, or do we preserve what we we wished would have happened? I dunno.

@hankster Why is a disgrace, just asking?

@Grecio because we just took whatever we wanted.we lied about it, broke our word, and killed all for $. we demolished a culture that was honorable and wise and not our own, thats why. read something about it.

@hankster I am sorry, but I have no idea what you mean.

@Grecio i figured. we stole the land. I'm sure there's plenty about it to read. they found gold there in them Hills.

@hankster Well said. I think the answer is some kind of philosophical question, like which came first "the chicken or the egg"? I really don't know.

@Grecio whatever you do don't look at it without your pride intact.

@hankster Why doesn't the president, and each governor appoint a task force to explore and make recommendations? Why has this never happened, as far as I know?

@Grecio because he's a fascist.

Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a form of far-right, authoritarian ultranationalism characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, as well as strong regimentation of society and of the economy which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe.

he wants to portray American history as he sees fit regardless of the facts. Facts might support an opposing point of view. he is intolerant of that.

Write Comment
You can include a link to this post in your posts and comments by including the text q:510601
Agnostic does not evaluate or guarantee the accuracy of any content. Read full disclaimer.