Hey folks, it's been a while since my last visit, so I have a lot to catch up on. Now that I'm semi-retired, my schedule seems to fuller that it was in the past! I'd like to share some knowledge about an issue that has raised its head a few times in regards to the mythic / pagan gods that are supposedly paralleled and copied in the whole Jesus story. This was featured in the movie Zeigeist, and the book "The Pagan Christ" by Tom Harpur.
They are based on the flawed writings of Higgins and Massey, two amature Egyptologists whose work has been roundly rejected by modern scholars... so I delved into researching it myself. The supposed parallels between the pagan god Horus for instance are nowhere to be found, such as the virgin birth, baptism, and death and resurrection, which Massey claims there is, and is unfortunately quoted in many places.
I'm NOT defending the whole Jesus story as legit - quite the opposite, but we as debaters must be armed with truths when engaging Christians, not flawed facts, possibly looking like we don't know what we're talking about. If anyone is interested, there's an article I wrote about it here: [jameshutchisonblog.blogspot.com]
Anyone else see through this?
Cheers people!
Retirement - Darwin said that he had never been so busy as he was after retiring. Every retiree knows this is true. One afternoon I had my last meeting of the day. Couldn't get there in time if I took public transit so I grabbed a cab. Driver asked if I was going home. Told him I had one more meeting. He asked what I did. "I'm retired!"
I see your point very well but I do not debate with others on whether god claims are correct or could be correct. Once I understood that 300 plus years after the time of Jesus was when we got our bible as we know it today none of it made any sense anymore. Who wrote what and when they wrote it all went down the drain.
Just today at my work 2 men were joking about who would go to heaven or hell. I told them this was a very serious subject because next they had to figure out who's heaven and who's hell they were going to.
To add to my previous post and give information that I think can be viewed as a peice of evidence for the mind virus organism still cognating and acting in the minds of the Masonic lodge secret religion racist devil worshipper European invador governmental terrorist, I leave this link and some information from the link.
The uneducated with no interest in mystical traditions and the esoteric may regard Ancient Egypt as little more than a place of pagan worship, strange hieroglyphics, and monuments erected by thousands of Hebrew slaves. But those more learned, especially those having undertaken the initiative rituals of Freemasonry, will see a link between the Egyptian metaphysical tradition and modern mystery schools, of which Freemasonry is one.
What objective evidence do you have the jews were slaves in egypt.
@xenoview, @DenoPenno [britannica.com]
Today, historians agree that Moses' people were the descendants of these slaves. And here is the evidence for their supposition. On blocks of stone found on the Sinai peninsula, we can see carvings that resemble the Hebrew script - they are quite different to the hieroglyphs of the Egyptians. The writing provides evidence of an independent culture, and several historians believe that the images carved in the stone prove that these people were the slaves of the Egyptians. And this is also the story that the Bible tells. Hebrew people labored in their droves to build the spectacular pyramids. Because the slaves were an invaluable work force, it was in the state's best interests to keep them alive. But they were made very much aware who wielded the power. Moses was one of these workers. He, and a chance event, changed history.
@DenoPenno It is quite likely that there was a perminant flow of escaped slaves out of Egypt. Who would have been forced to join the shepherd peoples living in the deserts to the East. That was almost bound to create the belief in those people, that they were the decendents of Egyption slaves, even though there would always be a dwindeling percent of native heritage. It is almost certain that on many occassions those desert peoples would have tried to invade or steal land in the Fertile Crescent, and they would sometimes succeed. The whole story is probably therefore a much simplified version of a long and complex series of events which took place over centuries. A simplification which is exactly that which tends to happen to history as it changes into folklore.
@DenoPenno I wholly agree, here is certainly no Biblical evidence for Egyptian Hebrew slaves, Hebrew may not even have been an idea then, but there is considerable evidence for slaves in general escaping into the desert. Including reports of outlaw slaves being a problem to and raiding into Egypt. Also don't forget that Egypt may have been used as a catch all term for all the countries to the south of the Fertile crescent, so that in the vague folk memory it could mean Arabia etc.
I am not saying that this is history, simply that some things are bound to happen, such as some of the people migrating from South America to the USA, are almost certainly going to go through Mexico. And so some migrants from South America are almost bound to be misnamed as migrants from Mexico. So some of the migrants from the deserts to the south of the Fertile Crescent are almost bound to have a vague memory of Egyptian decent. Egypt was just the big country and great power to the South, anyone with no more than a vague folk memory of their ancestry was almost bound to say. "We came from Egypt." even if they came from Ethiopia, Arabia or were natives of the deserts. After all very few white Americans are of British decent, not even those in the first thirteen colonies, they came from all over Europe, but many in the past especially would say that they were the English Americans.
@Fernapple my daughter recently found one line of ancestry that places me as a decent of a king of England. I don't think my daughter is lying about the ancestry research, but she has yet to give me a copy of the geneology. I can't even get her to tell me which king it was. That's just how my daughter is right now. On the other branch, I know I have other family specifically from England. Pettypool come from Pooty pool "...history of settled Essex, it is thought that Pooty Pools Farm, located in the parish of Roxwell, carries one of the two oldest recorded place-names in the local area...". Since William Pettypool settled in Virginia, my branch of last name has dropped the petty.
Illogical atheist Richard Dawkins makes the best case for the biological nature of Jesus character. A meme mind virus organism with its own cognition capability that is purport by biblical text to have gotten some of its "meme D.N.A." when the tribes of Israel were purported to have been in Egypt before Moses purported to have brought them out with the mutated and developed meme organism mind virus of the time.
It is not plagiarism as many want to purport, even the biblical text gives reference that the "god" (meme organism) of Israel is Egyptian.
whom the Lord of hosts shall bless, saying, “Blessed be Egypt My people, and Assyria the work of My hands, and Israel Mine inheritance.”
Isaiah 19:25
In the end, it's all bollocks anyway. Creation at some point happened and we are here, even if 'our here' turns out to be a computer programme or the imagination of a god thingy.
Interesting that we humans need to generate 'truths' about big stuff, such as Santa or gods begetting random offspring and such like, rather than admit we simply don't know yet.
Hey, welcome back!
I'm unfamiliar with The Pagan Christ but I've seen Zeitgeist (though it was several years ago that I watched it, so I don't recall many details anymore). I do recall thinking that it sounded a lot like the language and tone of conspiracy theorists and so I went in search for some evidence supporting or refuting the claims. Some of it is spot on, but a lot of it is whole-cloth fabrication. I saw a few years ago where someone called into The Atheist Experience show asking what the hosts thought of Zeitgeist and they roundly rejected it as too inaccurate. One thing I remember having a problem with is how they tried to make a linguistic connection, though stopped short perhaps of coming right out and saying it, that Jesus the "son" of God was also a "sun" god and drawing parallels to the movement of the sun standing in place for three days at the winter solstice as being representative of him dying on the cross and spending three days in Hell or something along those lines, and suggesting that some constellation that resembled a cross was where the idea of the crucifix came from. There's lots of nonsense to fill in the light webbing of facts that makes it look like there's a coherent argument to be made.