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Question of individual vs. group rights?

How do we objectively sacrifice individual rights for group rights?
Especially where the intent is the benefit of the individual?
For example:

  • should alcohol be illegal?
  • should drugs be illegal?
    -when we require a pharmaceutical drug to be tested for safety and effectiveness, my right to decide to use that drug is reduced.

To be clear, I am looking for a methodology and criteria for deciding the trade off.

SleepingOnABoat 7 Apr 25
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16 comments

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1

Depends what you mean by 'rights'. There are no natural rights. Human rights are something that societies decide to adopt.If you live in a society you are given certain rights, agreed by that society, in return for, broadly speaking, sticking to the norms of that society. Society as a whole has decided that alcohol should not be illegal, so if you are over 18, etc., you have the right to buy it. Every so often, society changes its collective mind about certain rights, usually as the result of groups of people pushing for it, like the right to own other human beings.

1

If you are looking for a methodology I suggest you read Plato. His division of labor theory attempts to guide you from individual rights to group rights and benefits to the polis. I believe you need to weigh each question alongside the benefits to the individual versus the group. We truly do not possess individual rights, this long ceased to be when humans formed groups to protect themselves from wild beasts or other humans. In your three examples you site drugs, alcohol and pharmaceutical testing as issues to be examined. What you are really asking is why are these three privilege's not individual rights? Those who do not partake in these privileges are still exercising their right not to partake in lawful or unlawful behavior.

[mises.org]

MarkF Level 5 Apr 25, 2018
1

Well I suppose one could apply the straight forward cost/benefit formula to such decision making. Who what is harmed or benefited by deciding one way or another in such situations?

@BeerAndWine That would depend once again on the cost/benefit. Are we talking about potential world destruction sorts of issues or is it something we can risk a bit and have some "learning room" to adjust our measure. People issues are all messy.

1

There is no such thing as "group rights" or "collective rights". When we use those terms, we're really talking about an aggregation of rights of individuals.

1

Knotty one this. Maybe thats why we have democracies. In the US you can have guns but not gambling (broadly speaking). You deal with the fallout from gun violence and accidental shootings which cannot be good for society but its your choice. In the UK we dont do guns but do have gambling. Sure it means that even as kids we can gather as a family and bet on the grand national or the derby but inside those betting offices are fixed odds machines. These will allow you to gamble up to £1,000 per minute on the high st. They have been described as crack for gambling addicts. We deal with the social consequences of this. Yer pays yer money and takes yer choice.

1

I perceive that the way you pose the issue is wrong. Consumption of alcohol and of harmful drugs is not a basic right. Those are substances which, if overused, are highly harmful, if not deadly. For some people, but not others, alcohol is highly addictive. All hard drugs are physically and mentally addictive and destructive -- ergo, the sale of those drugs should be highly limited, if not banned to protect unwise people from themselves

What we need to to is to focus on discovery and manufacture of non-addictive, non-opioid painkillers, then ban ALL productive and sale of ALL opioids..

1

My 2 cents: this is a problem. If I choose to harm myself through alcohol or drugs why should the government intervene? Most laws (like a stop sign) are there for the benefit of all -- like not harming someone else by hitting them with a car. There are other things that could be included here -- prostitution. Law and religion grew up hand-in-hand (from prehistoric time) and eventually broke into separate groups. Many Laws intersect with Religious tenants -- Don't kill, steal, etc. Governments create laws as a reaction to some stimulus -- which may be supplanted as time passes. Between cotton and marijuana war in George Washington's time, cotton won and marijuana has been in the toilet since then -- no specific laws until the 1920's. Victim-less crimes may be unreasonable -- like suicide attempts, but until the laws are changed, we are stuck with them. While I don't agree with all the laws (I doubt anyone really agrees with all of them), I do agree we need laws. Take an intelligent approach when breaking a law you disagree -- and if you do get caught, admit it freely. Yelling at a policeman only escalates things.

2

I am VERY pro-individual rights about almost everything. Alcohol and most recreational drugs, consensual sex between adults, and gambling is an individual choice....and should not be restrained by religious or socialist police states.

I also think that many prescription drugs, such as benzodiazepines, should not need a doctor's permission for a 30-day supply.

4

Should alcohol be illegal? No. Prohibition didn't work then and it wouldn't work now.

Should drugs be illegal? No. People are going to do them no matter what. Drug cartels profit the way Capone, et al used to when alcohol was illegal.

Legalize it all. Make it as safe as it's possible to make it. Tax and regulate the hell out of it. Use a portion of the resulting funds to provide addiction recovery at no cost to those who want it.

As far as pharmaceutical drugs, I could go on at great length about the profiteering in that industry and the harm it wreaks on us as a society. Salk gave the polio patent to the people and, as a result, we have almost no polio in the developed world. The current model, however, seems to be "Let's charge a freaking fortune to treat symptoms, but to hell with ever curing anyone. That's bad for the shareholders."

I realize that didn't address your specific question about pharmaceuticals, but you're looking for a very detailed answer on whether we should be able to choose to forego some safety testing to get our hands on promising drugs sooner, if need be. My two answers would be "maybe" and "I'm not qualified to answer that."

vita Level 7 Apr 25, 2018
1

The only real methodology is the Minority always rules even if it is elected or selected!

The majority can can control events but are always stirred towards the minority wants and needs do to fact one must earn to survive!

The majority can not and is not able to govern itself without loosing what it has gained!

So the phony inclusion of our wants and needs are just that, predestined to subdue us and make us feel we are part of Majority who thinks that they are in charge!

I agree, the theory of Capitalism , that supply meets demand, is cobblers as many suppliers create fashions and supply what they want to supply. The consumers are simply that and it takes what seems like ages for someone who is slightly progressive to get what they want on the market! But hey, we have stainless steel straws now, so I can retire from activism 😉

3

I'm not sure I understand the question? I'll endorse individual rights first, over group rights. If you can't respect an individual, how can one respect anything or anyone else? That one person becomes marginalized by other's values and subsequently terrorized in order to endorse the group over the individual.

There's an exercise in some philosophy classes about this. I can't remember exactly how it goes but it has to do with a lifeboat full of people, one of which is a fat man and do you keep him in there so that others may live?

1

I don't think there's a perfect methodology that never gives any individual, anywhere, less than everything they want 100% of the time. If that is the criteria then we would never make ANY decision, even bad ones.

Group consensus by definition means some people will be less than happy with the result. On the other hand the alternative is authoritarian-imposed decisions which guarantees, overall, that hardly anyone will be happy with the result except the authority and perhaps the elites.

I still can't come up with a better system than conscientious representative democracy; unfortunately the dysfunctional system in the US and many other countries falls short of this. My current touchstone is democratic socialism but that isn't perfect either.

I do think much of our difficulties in the US currently are the result of people concerned about losing privileged status, more than about economic concerns. In other words, white privilege is going away and some people are shitting bricks because of that. Those brick-shitters would, I assume, answer questions like yours in terms of getting rid of people who are Different or who disagree with them. To an extent, at least short to medium term, that are succeeding in that.

1

Interesting question. I think our rights diminish based on the number of people we interact with, for example, being in a crowded theater diminishes your freedom of speech.
Other limiting factors include use if available resources (if a lot of people are starving, it's right to take food from a person who throws away large amounts of food everyday. This involves a right to live verse private property rights), public safety, efficient use of public resources (if you drive 5 mph on the interstate because you're slow grooving, people behind you will rejoice when you get shot)

1

Right On!!!?

Coldo Level 8 Apr 25, 2018

Is that the main meaning? I thought it had more to do with raising hell amongst, 'the establishment'.

So let's entrust it to mobs then?

@girlwithsmiles

@Piece2YourPuzzle thanks for that, so I was half right...only if they're not legitimate though. Ta. Wow, now watching more Chomsky, very interesting stuff.

@mordant I've come across a group of Anarchists in my travels (about 20 years ago! but still) and they certainly weren't a mob, they were private and quite well organised.

@girlwithsmiles Chomsky is pretty genius.

1

Trolley Cases.
Best method ever.

3

The only legitimate rights are individual rights. Any laws should be based on that, I believe.

Then what happens when individual rights conflict?

Ultimately this leads to group over individual.

@WileEQuixote Give me an example of "conflicting" individual rights, please.

@IAMGROOT Every trolley case ever?

Right to privacy vs right to security?

2A right to bear arms vs right to not be killed?

@IAMGROOT Okay in the US you have the right to bear arms. You also have the right to life etc. If enough individuals abuse the right to bear arms it makes sense to reduce that right.Taken to its logical conclusion it could mean an individual could have nuclear weapons. Okay less controversial, public smoking. You have the right to smoke but if you smoke in a public place you infringe on other individual rights to breath clean air. You have the right to free speech but if your shouting at 3am your impinging on your neighbors right to sleep ie. pursuit of happiness Plus the oft quoted you do not have the right to shout fire in a crowded theater, which covers hate crime incitement. You have the right to practice your own religion but if that means that you have to stop abortions then your imposing on a womans right over her own body. I could go on but you get the point.

@WileEQuixote, @273kelvin; Basic INDIVIDUAL rights, such as life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness (and for grins, let's thrown in the right to bear arms), are rights you have as one person to practice individually. There are laws regulating the dissemination and use of firearms, laws regulating smoking in public places, and other laws designed to manage the behavior of individuals to prevent the "conflicting" practicing of those rights. That is, you're allowed to smoke, but not in restaurants, government buildings, or other businesses (at least in California). I don't view these laws as eliminating individual rights in the name of "group rights." IMHO, any extended laws to govern "the masses" should stem from individual rights, and protect those rights as long as they do not infringe upon others.

@IAMGROOT How do you view motorcycle helmet and seatbelt laws?
Plus you have the right 1st inscribed in magna carta later in the 5th amendment, not to be forced to give evidence that will incriminate you . Yet if you get pulled over in your car you have to give a breath test or complete a sobriety test.

@273kelvin I disagree with them. I consider them "nannny state" laws, telling us to do something under threat of legal action is ridiculous. It's the same mentality as being a X-tian. I can't be good if U No Hoo isn't looking over my shoulder to keep me in line. In California, driving is considered a privilege, not a right. If you are lawfully pulled over for suspicion of DUI here, implied consent law requires you to submit to either a breathalyzer, blood test or urinalysis. You can refuse, and I even heard a radio ad just yesterday by some law firm saying just that, to refuse. Of course, refusal will immediately result in a suspension of your license and could itself be used as evidence against you in court.

@IAMGROOT There is a theory that all drivers should not have seat belts or air bags. Instead they should drive with a 12" bayonet pointing out of the steering column. No traffic cops would ever be needed, we would all drive like nuns.
What we have instead is unit cost analysis. ie. Number of man hours lost by accidents / cost of implementing legislation. Also it can be a fudge to prevent spending real money on the problem. For example in Australia and parts of Canada, it is compulsory for cyclists to wear helmets. Supporters of this point to a 25% reduction in serious accidents. However detractors say that there has been a 25% reduction in people cycling. Plus there has been less investment in cycle paths etc.

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