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They prescribe knowledge to be a subset of belief. They say knowledge is true justified belief.

First, wheither its belief phase or knowledge phase we are at least dealing with information.

Hit someone up side the head with a baseball bat. Assuming they do not get knocked out, do they first hold it true(have a belief) that they got hit with a base ball bat or do they have knowledge they got hit with a base ball bat?

Is it like: ouch that hurt. I believe that bat just hit me up side the head. Yes, it did, it did, that bat right there that i know exists just hit me up side the head.

I think we can have knowledge of things without it being in the philosophical belief phase.

Truth is information that is true. True is something that is correct. Law of identity as used, "P is P". Gives us an understanding of viewing true in relation to P. P on the left meets correctly the standard of P on the right. They are then true or exact matching standard to each other.

I think more appropriate: Truth is a subset of knowledge. Knowledge is a subset of information. Belief/disbelief is simply the subjective way a person holds information in mind. Yet, i do not think it should become a false dichotomy, information held could be held simply as holding the information in mind without a decision as to it being held as true or false. Information held without holding it true or false is not a belief or disbelief. Subjectively, the person has not made decision to hold the information either way, therefore its not a belief(hold true) or disbelief(hold false).

I think the philosophical use of the word knowledge is trying to be prescribing the word knowledge as synonymous with truth.

Where as it would seem to me, knowledge is more simply information in mind. The information in mind could be held true or false(belief/disbelief).

The information held as true or false(belief/disbelief) could be verified as true or false regardless of how the person holds the information in mind.

Word 8 Jan 30
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4 comments

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1

You have a lot to unpack here. Who is this monolithic "they" you speak of? Philosophers?

Belief has two connotations for me:

  1. Rational understanding something is true and real, such as "I am breathing" or "people die" so factual statements accepted universally as reality are believed, yes.

  2. A "belief" can also be founded on bullshit as in "I believe lizard people own and control the government" or "I believe Elvis is still alive" statements that are predicated on CHOICE. I choose to believe can be founded on basically no evidence or universal accepted truth, which in academia is called an axiom.

Belief is a choice in both cases but based on verifiable proof or pure bullshit or some sort of speculation in between.

What we see online is usually distortions of truths, which is why conspiracy theories are so prevalent.

For instance, we have things in our environment that are carcinogens and so some people falsely believe all things cause cancer, especially from specific sources like one large corporation or the government.

People love to refer to "the government" as if it too, is a monolith. Organizations are people, not buildings. So people are not always rational. So stating the government does this, or the government does that, is really discussing people, policies they have to follow, rules, laws and regulations they have to follow as well as personal differences in how people as individuals carry out government jobs. So when it comes to discussing organizations, people are working for agencies, so they impact those agencies. But, when employees of said agencies have to follow law, there is only so much they can do to make changes other non government workers want. This is why I am interested in discussions of truth claims.

"Truth" claims are an area where philosophy gets involved. At the intersection of some statement as fact and the field of that truth claim it exist in.

"There is a god" opens the philosophy of religion for example.

So yes, knowledge is based on belief, but beliefs can be wrong or right based on evidence or proof.

So as far as what is knowledge, yes epistemology is all about that. But truth can change too, with history, so that is even open for debate.

Example: the DSM is the diagnostic manual for mental disorders used by doctors, nurses, psychologists, mental and behavioral health practitioners and many more fields. But what is in it as "true mental illness" changes constantly. Homosexuality used to be listed as a mental disorder. Now it is not. It is a sexual orientation. So a few decades ago and being gay meant you were mentally ill. Now that is not true.

So accounting for changes in truth that is false or true is necessary as well.

Remember the argument over Pluto being a planet? Is that really established as complete? Planet, not a planet, still debated. Nobody really agrees 100 percent either on many ideas that were considered true before.

So I guess yes, knowledge is truth to some extent, before more evidence or information is gathered that may impact this. Truth is historical and changes sometimes.

Death may be "cured" someday, so the old axiom we all die may change too.

Yes, you too have a lot to unpack here.

Who is this monolithic "they" you speak of? Philosophers?
A. Yes, basically anyone that works with that prescribed usage.

Belief is a choice, you say.
A. Yes, fundamentally. Belief is simply the subjective decision that a person makes to hold information as true. Disbelief the opposite: indication to hold information as false.

Belief has 2 connotations for you: you say.
A. I think fundamentally in agreement with you, but I might would give a little more semantic detail if I wanted to technically cover the full aspects. For now, I won't go into exhaustive explination. But copy here my brief last statement of my O.P.
B. The information held as true or false(belief/disbelief) could be verified as true or false regardless of how the person holds the information in mind.

As to some name changes, or classification changes like your example of homosexuality changed from mental illness:, these name or classification changes does not change what it is.

Pluto is or is not a planet: as to "truth", Pluto is pluto, What if an asteroid were to obliterate pluto and it is just scattered debris. Then it's no longer a planet for sure. So, things can change and the "truth" of it being what it was changes too.

Another example of name changing and word evolution is the word religion. As you use:

"There is a god" opens the philosophy of religion for example.

For 2000 years almost, it has been documented that religion is simply helping widows and orphans in need while avoiding worldly corruption.

A spaghetti monster is not required to do religion.

Religion ... pure and faultless is this: to help widows and orphans in need and avoiding worldly corruption. James 1:27

Semantics and logic are intrinsic ... all I have time for at the moment.

Just before he died Socrates asked his friend Crito to go and sacrifice a cockerel as was the custom at the time when recovering from an illness. However, I am not inclined to think that Socrates regarded life as an “illness” from which death is the recovery.

@Word well to speak plain English, truth is not something that is always static. Belief is always a choice.

@Word also, as per homosexuality changing, yes the changes in the DSM did change how it is viewed. It is no longer a diagnosis of mental illness. So one cannot be diagnosed as being mentally ill just for being gay, so it did change for many reasons.

This means there is a legally and medicinally accepted new truth of gay being normal. As it should be.

So truth in this instance, very much did change. I am glad too!

@ClareCK not as a dispute as to how legal or medical should or should not view homosexuality. But, just because it is called illness or normal is not what I would consider that truth is about. Truth -
the quality or state of being true. What is being true? True - in accordance with fact or reality, accurate or exact.

Normal
the usual, average, or typical state or condition.

Such can change:
the new normal — a previously unfamiliar or atypical situation that has become standard, usual, or expected.

How something is classified for standard doesn't change what it is. Legal, medical, political is just changing the standard of accepting it as an allowed standard. It does not change what we refer to as homosexuality. As to say, homosexuality in it strictest view in homo sapiens has 0 (zero) evolutionary fitness. Evolutionary fitness pertaining to the amount of offspring. Homosexuality, wheither legally, medically, politically acceptable or not does not change the fact that homosexuality in its strictest sense in homo sapiens produces no offspring to pass on genetic information to a next generation.

1

All information is either true or false and many do not know the difference. Often it is because we are tribal and think we belong to one group or the other. This makes truth very elusive. Truth must be similar to beauty being in the eye of the beholder only now we are talking about the mind.

1

I love the baseball tag because it's not really true.

You don't think it true that someone would know they got hit by a bat?

@Word I think it presumptuous that the bat is one used in baseball. One could be hit with a flying rodent like creature. In fact, it would be easier to imagine that they weren't unconscious after being hit with a vampire bat, for instance.

@rainmanjr I did mention baseball as the type of bat.

@Word So you did. I should reread instead of trying to be witty. I can't imagine being hit with a bat and don't really want to so I can't guess. I tend to think that they would know.

@rainmanjr ok, nothing wrong with being a little witty at times, just so long as you don't go bat crazy.

@Word Let's do the theme song. Nah nah nah nah nah nah nah nah nah nah nahna na. BATMAN!

2

Who are “they”?

The people I come across making the statement I said they said.

Philosophical knowledge is saying information in mind can only be called "knowledge " when it is in fact truth.

I point out, knowledge is information in mind regardless of truth. Verfied information of the knowledge in mind can be found to be true or false.

From website example they use:

Most epistemologists have found it overwhelmingly plausible that what is false cannot be known. For example, Hillary Clinton did not win the 2016 US Presidential election. Consequently, nobody knows that Hillary Clinton won the election. One can only know things that are true.

So when we say that only true things can be known, we’re not (yet) saying anything about how anyone can access the truth. As we’ll see, the other conditions have important roles to play here. Knowledge is a kind of relationship with the truth—to know something is to have a certain kind of access to a fact.[3]

[plato.stanford.edu]

Here's the problem I have with the epistemologists statement.

It can be known that the information (or statement) is false, "Hillary Clinton won the election "

So, I can know false information and know it to be false.

@Word There can be knowledge also, that is not known to some, but known to others. So it doesn't have to exist in everyone's mind to be true either. What would you call that? Esoteric knowledge for example is like when people in certain professions know information other don't. So knowledge can be out there, but unknown to some.

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