Russia never tried to erase Ukraine. War began because of Ukraine's refusal to implement the Minsk peace agreement and to pursue attacks on the Donbas instead.

@Krish55 Putin denies the existence of a Ukrainian people and a Ukrainian state. His military invaded Ukraine, and is currently attempting to bomb the country into oblivion. I think most reasonable people would agree that amounts to attempted erasure.

Minsk was just a smokescreen, intended to serve as a Russian wedge into Ukrainian politics. From the start, the fighting in the Donbas was fomented by the Russians, who sent agitators, arms, and even regular Russian Army troops without insignia on their uniforms into Ukrainian territory.

Ukrainians chose the West over Moscow, self- rule over subservience to Russia, and Putin just can't accept that. Ukraine is a rich plum of a country, endowed with fertile soil that allows it to feed half the world. Putin can read the handwriting on the wall. The petro-state is doomed to failure as climate change bites ever harder and the world is realizing we can no longer burn fossil fuels without incurring severe consequences.

The corrupt Russian oligarchy (of which Putin is the head) has grown fat and lazy on the easy money from oil and gas sales. They love their super-yachts, old-master paintings, supermodel consorts, and palatial villas. All that takes money. Lots of money. And the soulless bastards are willing to bomb schools, apartment buildings, and maternity hospitals in order to get it. They're criminals, and they deserve to hang.

@Flyingsaucesir Ukrainians did not choose the West. Their pro Russian president who was democratically elected was overthrown by Ukrainian. Nazis with the help of the american envoy victoria nuland in 2014.

@Krish55 The Ukrainian people wanted a trade deal with the West, and they thought they were going to get it. Then, at the last minute, the Ukrainian president (Yanukovich, a Russian puppet) backed out of the deal and instead made a deal with Putin. That was what precipitated the Euromaidan protests, where hundreds of Ukrainian civilians were killed by Yanukvich's storm troopers. This ultimately led to his ouster. And where is that Ukrainian ex-president today? Moscow! That pretty much says it all.

@Flyingsaucesir This conflict should have ended in the first months, but peace was unacceptable to your Nuland types. How can anyone trust Blinken, the US's top diplomat, who lied during his confirmation hearing? His recent interview he stated he doesn't do politics, the SoS of America says he doesn't do politics.
If Putin wanted Ukraine it would have been a full invasion from the start. He got jack of Russian speakers being constantly shelled by their own government, Zelenskyy who got in on a "lets be friends with Russia" ticket as the populace was also sick of constant shelling of their own people since 2014. 12,000 dead from 2014-2022, when Russia moved in. Perhaps if media did it's job and reported on what was happening in Ukraine the government may have curbed it's excesses. Many in the know have come out and confirmed the Minsk agreement was to buy time so NATO could arm and train Ukraine in order to provoke Russia into conflict.
But no, a wedge needed to be driven between Russia and Europe, that relationship was getting far too cosy for the US. How despicable Europe be dependent on Russian energy when the US had a glut of crap fracked oil it needed to sell, so make Europe depend on US energy instead.
And then the terrorist act of Nord Stream. Those responsible should swing on the end of ropes.
Ukraine are unable to join the EU because they are too corrupt, but corruption has no probs joining NATO. Many many Ukrainians, like 2 million of them, were already in Europe working, already trading with Europe. They could have and should have good relations East and West. But the government overthrown in 2014 decided on Russian assistance rather than IMF money, which always have strings attached. Unacceptable that decision was.
A shame that cockhead John McCain and Nuland went there to stir up the protesters in 2014, promising unlimited US support if a coup was orchestrated, but I suppose it got Hunter a job.

@puff Say what you like (much of which is highly debatable), Russia is the aggressor here. There was no excuse for their stealth invasion of 2014 and there is no excuse for the escalation that began in 2022. Russia's illegal methods (summary executions, bombing schools, hospitals, apartment buildings, power stations, etc.) are consistent with their warped and weak justification for their invasion. Russia is an outlaw state, headed by a bloody, lying criminal. Most Americans AND Europeans agree with this assessment, which is why we are sending aid to Ukraine, and will continue to do so until Putin gives up on his imperial fever dream.

@Flyingsaucesir Why does the US have troops in Syria? Why did the US assassinate an Iranian general in Iraq via drone? What of the 12,000 dead Ukrainians before Russia invaded? And what about Nord Stream which undid any "green" initiatives the world was undertaking?
No position to lecture and Ukraine is becoming for the US what Afghanistan was for the USSR.

@puff US forces went into Syria because ISIS was there. There are very few American forces there now.

The assassination of the Iranian general was all about a criminal American president stoking his ego.

There was no "12,000 dead Ukrainians before Russia invaded." Russia has been in the Donbas, fomenting insurrection from the git go.

The party responsible for the sabotage of Nordstream is unknown. Whoever they are, they arguably did the world a favor. The action has spurred Europe to speed up their transition to green energy.

Afghanistan is the graveyard of empires. We should never have attempted nation building there. Europe is a completely different kettle of fish.

Ukraine was (and still is, in spite of Putin's illegal war) a fully-functioning, sovereign democracy. The Ukrainian will to fight for their country is evidence of their moral superiority in this conflict. This stands in vivid contrast to the general lack of enthusiasm on the part of Russian men of military age, hundreds of thousands of whom have intelligently fled their country in order to avoid the fight in Ukraine.

@Flyingsaucesir You really do need to widen your news sources. Ukraine atm is very far from a democracy. There is no opposition. Young men are being taken unwillingly off the streets and Kyiv mothers are protesting. So are Russian Mothers. No-one wants this war except NATO/ US. Good to see you also approve of terrorist attacks against your allies, "did the world a favour" you think? Perhaps you are right, as it has hastened the move away from the $USD. I think the targeting of major civilian energy infrastructure in international waters being accepted as "a good thing" with no consequences sets a rather nasty precedent myself. Not to mention the environmental disaster it was.

I assume you are a Democrat, so how do you feel there will be no DNC debates between Democratic presidential candidates? No thrashing out of ideas so supporters may make an informed decision on who they want to lead the party? No real primary season for 2024? Is this the type of democracy Democratic party supporters want? Biden is the best option the DNC has to offer, you really happy with that decision made on your behalf? Kennedy on an ABC interview had said interview edited aka censored. A media enterprise decided what a prospective Presidential candidate can or cannot say basically. Get used to it.

@Flyingsaucesir Not according to polling, people do not want Biden to run again, including democratic supporters. JRF Jr would be allowed to illustrate to voters he is a wackjob in a democracy.
Do you really believe with all the alphabet agencies and lack of interest in investigating that no-one knows who blew up Nord Stream? Everybody knows, that information is just not deemed suitable for general public knowledge.
I am for the efficient use of resources. The world will be reliant on fossil fuels for awhile yet and environmentally Nord Stream was very efficient, far less risk than transporting energy across oceans or road/ rail. Europe is still buying Russian oil, just at a mark up through India and China.
All wars end in negotiation, even surrenders are negotiated. Zelenskyy is unable to negotiate, at least until his masters find it "acceptable". ATM unfortunately the oppourtunity for negotiations has past us by I think. Both sides will escalate and more will die. But it will end in negotiation unless 1984 is fulfilled and there is constant war, run by AI the way we are going.

@puff Actually, the Ukrainian government is the only entity with power to decide whether Ukraine will cede its territory to a bloody fascist dictator.

How nice of you to bring up the issue of free and open discussion of ideas! Perhaps you should direct your criticism to Vlad the Invader, who has outlawed use of the word "war" to describe his project in Ukraine, has shut down whatever free press existed in Russia, and jails Russian citizens for silently holding up a blank sheet of white paper!

@Flyingsaucesir Wouldn't it be nice for Ukraine if the West cancelled their debt? That would really help, as much of the funds given to them is used to service that debt. What I'm saying is the Ukraine government is only in power from aid. And yes, it is a shame they make the decisions not for Ukraine, but third party interests. It's a classic proxy war.
Putin is no angel for sure and Russians want democracy. But they do not want American democracy or any other democracy imposed on them. Left to their own devices, that society will eventually sort itself out and form their own democracy, which officially it is atm, a democracy. If Russia had not been demonised and kept at a distance after the fall of the USSR, when they wanted to join NATO but were refused, things would be very different. Even through sanctions the relationship with Europe was becoming stronger via economic ties. That was their main problem I believe, they were becoming too close which threatened one particular county's dominance. NATO needs Russia to justify its existence and do not forget who destroyed Libya, NATO's baby 100%. And Bosnia/ Serbia.
Ukraine is a border country with Russia and geographically important for their security. The US is now sending 1500 troops to your Southern border and there has been some talk to enter Mexico and clean up the cartels involved in human trafficking and fentanyl imports. If you are open to this idea then perhaps you may begin to understand Putin and Russia. Yes Putin is willing to use his forces, but only border regions or upon invitation like Syria. Other countries don't care whether they are invited or not. It's why I support BRICS and the push for a multipolar world. No one country dominating sounds good to me. The world has had enough of bipolar geopolitics eg East Vs West. The UN needs major reconstruction eg wtf does France have a permanent seat on the security council in 2023? The worlds changing and those in power, the collective "West", are the ones who will be losing power. I don't mind that at all, bring it on! Humanity needs to change.
I am anti mandates for medical treatment. Look up the definition of "antivax" and you will see it includes me which is false as I am very pro vaccine. Tried, tested and proven ones. What other words have the West redefined or outlawed lately? Can you think of any? Hint, think pronouns.

@puff If it's a proxy war, it's one that Vlad the Invader brought on all by himself. (Not unlike what George W. Bush did in Iraq; but two wrongs do not make a right.)

@Flyingsaucesir Speaking of GW, his announcement in 2007 that Ukraine would be a part of NATO is kinda when all this shit started. Putin has been consistently firm in his stance that NATO assets based in Ukraine would be a red line for Russia. he was ignored. And here we are.

NB Georgia was another red line for Russia. Putin has always stated they, Ukraine and Georgia, must stay neutral militarily.
To empathise, think of Mexico joining a Chinese military alliance with aims to site missiles in Mexico. Do you think the USA would accept that situation?
[rferl.org]

@puff Hey, NATO is a defensive alliance, and it's not Vlad's business who joins and who doesn't. He just uses that as an excuse to annex prime real estate. Hell, if Russia would really clean up her act, I'm sure NATO would welcome her in. Think of it!

@Flyingsaucesir If NATO is a defensive alliance, why have they been very active in the Middle East? Libya?
NATO reneged on a commitment when Germany reunified
[euroweeklynews.com]
Yeltsin wanted to join NATO but was refused. You have to admit, its complicated with many missed oppourtunities
[time.com]

@puff

Russia under Yeltsin did not qualify for NATO membership. They might have, eventually, if Vlad the Invader had not assumed command.

Name one country whose territory NATO has annexed.

@Flyingsaucesir The former Yugoslavia.
Easier to name those they have attacked/ destroyed outside of Europe but posed no threat to Europe. Like Afghanistan, Libya.
[en.wikipedia.org]

@puff ! Peacekeeping forces of the UN, not NATO, went into Serbia/Croatia AFTER the breakup of the Soviet Union in order to stop a genocide being carried out by Christians against Muslims. No territory was annexed. Since then, however, several heads of state have been put on trial at the International Court for war crimes, including Slovodon Milosovich and Radavan Karadich. I probably spelled their names wrong, but the point is that an important precedent was set. Hopefully Putin will follow in their shackled footsteps, right up to the gallows.

@Flyingsaucesir Indeed a precedent was set, a use of military force without UN approval.
[dw.com]
The US does not recognise the ICC and when they start investigating Americans, the government sanctions the judges.
[hrw.org]
All for Putin facing trial, but not before GW Bush faces the music for Iraq.

@puff I'm ok with prosecuting GW Bush. Go for it! Hang him right next to Putin!

The person you say was "being interviewed" looks like she was taking a selfie. Or was she on a zoom call? Anyway, who cares? Russians who serve in Putin's genocidal war machine deserve to be interfered with at every turn. They get off easy with a good ass kicking.

@Flyingsaucesir She was being interviewed. So you say that if a ukrainian was being interviewed the russians would have a right to hold a russian flag behind her?

@Krish55 No. I say Russians who serve in Putin's genocidal war machine deserve to be interfered with at every turn. Russia is clearly the aggressor here. Russia needs to quit Ukraine immediately, and start paying war reparations. Putin needs to be put on trial for war crimes.

Two wrongs don't make a right. They are meant to be diplomats, expect more from public representatives.

@puff Russian "diplomats" do not negotiate in good faith. They just go through the motions for photo ops and general lying propaganda. The only genuine position they could express is "We're sorry, we're leaving now, and here's a couple trillion Euros to rebuild your country."

@Flyingsaucesir Unlike American diplomats?

@puff In this case, yes.

@Flyingsaucesir Minsk agreement? Iran nuclear deal? The dissolvement of the Warsaw Pact to allow Germany to reunite?

@puff I already addressed Minsk. Given your failure to prove any of your points, you desire to move the debate to other issues is understandable. Your surrender is accepted.

@Flyingsaucesir
You display no understanding of what diplomacy is about.

Since the creation of the UN, countries that have been warring usually respect each other and their host country. The whole point of diplomacy is to find a vehicle to stop the warring.
Ukrainians were first at fault for crashing the interview of the Russian diplomat.

You apparently want the diplomats to also take up arms against each other.
By your logic, american and israeli diplomats should be regularly harassed and prevented from carrying out their duties because their countries engage in various aggressive wars.

Actually, by your logic, Ukranian diplomats hould themselves be subjected to the same harassment they engaged in because Ukraine did participate in the illegal invasion and occupation of Iraq from 2003 - 2008.

@Flyingsaucesir
He did not move on to other points. He's pointing out your hypocritical double standard.

@Krish55 Hey, let Russia get the fuck out of Ukraine. Then the diplomats can talk about how much in reparations Russia is going to pay.

@Krish55 If you study my writings on this site, you will see that I am the first to condemn George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, and Condoleeza Rice, Paul Wolfowitz, and others for their illegal and ill-conceived invasion of Iraq and subsequent series of bone-headed moves that destabilized the entire Middle East and gave rise to ISIS. But I also maintain that two wrongs do not make a right. Russia has no business in Ukraine.

@Flyingsaucesir So you would agree then that american diplomats should be treated in the same way that you propose for russian diplomats?

@Krish55 America is not currently engaged in a genocidal land grab (as is Russia), so no.

@Flyingsaucesir US troops are occupying Syria and they are in dozens of countries around the world some where they have installed friendly governments to house their troops.

@Krish55 "Occupying" is not the right word for the US presence in Syria.

For the most part, where there are US troops today, it is by agreement with that country's government.

Your point?

@Flyingsaucesir The syrian government objects to US troops in its country.
You seem to have one standard for russia and another for western imperialism.

@Krish55 Are you saying that the tiny American presence in Syria is equivalent to what Russia is doing in Ukraine?

@Flyingsaucesir
If Syria we're getting to help Ukraine is getting, the American presence wouldn't be tiny. It would be much larger to counteract the Syrian attempt to take back their land.

The point here is the principle. Occupation is occupation be it large or small. The US occupation of Syrian land doesn't have to be large because the US is much more powerful than Syria.

So therefore, American diplomats, by your reasoning, should be disrupted and even attacked at international gatherings.

@Krish55 The situations in Ukraine and Syria are completely different. The conflict in Syria is (was) a civil war, an internal matter. That's completely different from what is happening in Ukraine, where Russia has invaded a sovereign nation and is attempting to obliterate the state, the people, the culture, and annex their land. The US is in Syria only because ISIS, a terrorist organization, is using Syria as a base of operations. vs

@Flyingsaucesir
The u s was arming and training other islamic fanatics before isis got in there and took advantage of the chaos the u s had created. The us had earlier armed these other islamic Fanatics too oppose the syrian government.

See the full context above.