I think Neo-Nazis, the ones who proudly use and display their symbology, should be used as a unifier. If the US stuck by its guns and refused to support the Nazi elements, certain battalions (Azov) within Ukraine, everyone would thank you. Make Ukrainians happy, Russians happy, Europeans happy..........no one likes Nazi's.
And with that element gone within Ukraine; the ones who want everything Russian destroyed including language, art, history/ culture, even recognition (admit it does sound a bit "final solution"ish), get rid of them then there may be a place for peace. A concession to Russian demands perhaps, but one that should be made.
PS Not nuanced enough to fight besides the KKK, nor support NATO after Libya.

@puff Like I said, if l was trying to kill the people that were taking over my country, I don't think I'd care about the other beliefs of the person next to me shooting at the same people. I doubt you would either, and I don't think there's anything you could say that would convince me otherwise.

@ChestRockfield There is no way if Ukranian I would join Zelenskyy's army. The cunt refuses to negotiate to end the war, even passing law forbidding negotiations with Putin. So fucked if I would fight for a leader like that, not representing me or my countries interest imo.

@puff That's not the question. (And we're not even talking about joining an army, we're just talking about fighting against people attacking you.) The question is if you were fighting an invading force trying to conquer your country, would you care who it was that was also shooting at the people you were shooting at?

@ChestRockfield And I'm saying it depends on the values my government controlling the fighting has. If I did not agree, I would fight but not with government forces I did not support. I would fight in other ways. Realistically if actually in Ukraine and Ukranian, someone with my attitude would be locked up or worse.
If Ukranian, I would know it is far bigger interests driving Zelenskyy not to make peace than me or my fellow citizens. He refuses to negotiate for starters and if you don't like that stance, bad luck because no elections planned whilst at war. His tactics of attacking very well prepared defense lines without air support....Fuck that, not fighting for that.
Can't see Zelenskyy lasting and fear if given the chance the US will display the same "hold my nose, enemy of my enemy is my friend" philosophy and install some rapid Russian hating neo-Nazi. So for Ukrainians sake, let's hope he is replaced with someone who will negotiate aka live with Russia, addressing their concerns not inflaming them..
Does Ukraine being absorbed into NATO make Europe a safer place? Not seeing it so better to drop that brain fart imo.

@puff
You didn't answer my question.

Also, why would you negotiate with someone that doesn't adhere to what they've said in the past? In January, Putin said he wouldn't invade and then invaded in February.

@ChestRockfield Your question, yes I would care who was joining me if ethnic cleansing was part of their mission. And if the invading force was fighting my government who had been shelling me since 2014, I may even welcome them. As Cambodians did to the Vietnamese when they removed Pol Pot.

You have heard of the Minsk Agreement? An agreement a certain side never intended to agree to when signing?
Who knows why Putin invaded militarily at that specific time and I don't condone it, I do understand some. I dare say it may have been the increased shelling of the Donbass immediately prior to the invasion may have had something to do with it. The increased arming by US/ NATO of Ukraine also. Maybe he knew war was coming anyway, and decided that he would choose the time when, not others. I do think he does like doing that to the West, fucking up their plans and timelines like in Syria. Now he's doing it in Ukraine.
I said this before but this is how I see the lead up.
Remember, Russia was treated like shit ever since they stepped in to help Syria and blew up those ISIS truck conveys stealing oil within days, something NATO forces had been unable to do in months (funny about that). Then after a violent coup overthrew a democratically elected government in Ukraine 2014, one willing to do business with Russia, and replaced it with one hostile to Russia approved by John McCain, Victoria Nuland et al. Then they started arming and training Ukrainians who used it against the Donbass. Russia went "Fuck it" and took Crimea with the local population totally on side pretty much. Then sanctions and consular expulsions and then we have Hillary's little paid for dossier and Russiagate. Russia defamed for utter nonsense a lot of Americans still believe to this day. I still think treating their figure skater like shit at the winter Olympics in 2022 is the thing that pushed Putin over. Russia was already scum in many eyes so Russia's treatment could not get much worse. He thought "Fuck it, enough already". He also assumed that the world, like him, had witnessed Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and Syria. He assumed the world would see condemnation from the West as hypocritical.
And here we are.

@puff If you say, "Fuck it, I don't care what the world will think of me", then you can't be upset when the world thinks you're a fucking dick. And they choose a communist country pact instead. None of what you detailed, even if it was all true which it's not, wouldn't be just cause to attack and occupy a sovereign nation.

@ChestRockfield Like Syria? Where Obama trained and armed al Nusra. And I do not condone the invasion of Ukraine like I don't approve the coup that happened in 2014. You can do that whilst understanding somewhat what the reasoning is. Calling it an "unprovoked" invasion is pure disinformation.

@puff Apparently we all disagree on the definitions of just provocation. For me, any of the reasons people have detailed do not seem worthy of a preemptive attack, thus, I support any and all action to support Ukraine's removing of Putin's army from within their border and/or from the face of the Earth.

@ChestRockfield As I do with every single uninvited garrison world wide the US has set up. Leave Syria now then, practice what you preach to others. Perhaps others will follow your example aka real leadership.

@puff
The thing you and FrayedBear can't seem to grasp is that American citizens have no more power to force our government to do something regarding foreign affairs than you do yours (or ours). For fuck's sake, we can't even get them to do shit that is supported by 70 fucking percent of the population. You might as well be telling us to force mother nature to quit sending earthquakes and hurricanes.

@ChestRockfield There is a chance if democrats lose that there will be a clean up of corrupt Washington. Of course in order for them to lose, atm that means Trump wins which I understand is the last thing many want. Catch 22 can't continue to let corruption go unpunished but Trump not the ideal choice to clean it up, but at least he would try.
That's why, if independent, I would be going for Kennedy as he will attract both Trump and Democrat votes and lots of "undecided" or non party affiliated. Kennedy is the only real Democrat, who happens to have a fine record going against big business interests and winning. Not a war lover.
The problems with the democratic party is it has been hijacked by the DNC and works for them to maintain power #1. If Kennedy was a third candidate the democratic Party would come third which it needs, to get rid of the Pelosi, Chuck Schumer and Clinton types etc and have a grass roots revival aka what Sanders attempted.
At least with Kennedy, he would release lots of classified stuff finally and I think he would retire the Patriot Act.

@puff It's fucking hilarious you think the Democrats losing is how we'll get rid of corruption. Does anyone in your life take you seriously at all?

@ChestRockfield If the democrats win, it will tell the DNC
Public does not care who figurehead president is.
Public does not care about Democrat party corruption
Public OK with withdrawal from Afghanistan
Public OK with Nord Stream, an environmental disaster undoing any green initiatives.
Public OK with spooks suppressing laptop story, covid and other anti govt policy narratives.
Public OK with 2 trillion yearly budget deficits adding to a $33 trillion debt costing 2 trillion/ year to just service.
Public OK with undocumented migrants entering the country.
If the democrats win, they will become smugger and more corrupt. A one party state. If they lose, they will be forced to rebuild and self reflect which is much needed.

If the government shuts down you may be safe in the knowledge that even though your public servants may get shafted, ones in Ukraine have a special potus fund so they will still be paid. Thank you for your service lol.

@puff You know absofuckingloutely nothing about American politics.
The ONLY thing a party winning can tell you in this country is that the other party's platform wasn't liked as much or was more disliked. Period. It doesn't tell you any of the nonsense shit you detailed above. The most ridiculous part of your assertion is that you think picking the Democrat is the less-environmentally-conscious choice and the less-fiscally-conscious choice.

Do some fucking reading, bro, you sound like an idiot.

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