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I don't mean to start anything, but it seems to me, as an agnostic, that it takes as much faith to say there is no god as it does to say there is. Thoughts?

monstrslyr 4 May 15
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56 comments (26 - 50)

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How much faith did it take you to dismiss Mohammed? Vishnu? Zeus?

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I respectfully disagree. It’s about the evidence for the existence of a god or gods. To which I can say there haven’t been any presented to me as of yet.

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Most claim lack of BELIEF in the existence of a god, as opposed to ASSERTING that no god could exist. There's a humongous difference between the two positions. Even less probable is the possibility of the god of a specific religion existing. I was able to arrive at these positions only after I educated myself in the dubious origins, scientific errors, lack of historicity, contradictions, moral shortcomings, and absurdities of religions. I could point you in so many directions to acquire this education. But since a majority of people seem to have Jesus on the brain, here is a video I've recently come across which does a great job of debunking Jesus, assuming that you accept that he existed, which is not a given:

7

Atheism is lack of belief. Atheism is not a belief that something doesn’t exist.

Isn't doing nothing actually doing something? And how do we know what we don't know?

@josephr You're either convinced or not convinced. It's not really a choice.

@Rossy92 I disagree. Accepting that we can't understand everything at our stage of emotional and intellectual evolution is a reality, be it an uncomfortable one for many. There is so much in our universe that we can't understand, and often, we don't even know what we don't know. That is just one cross humans have to bear. Lol And we all have the choice to remain confused and to work around our confusion.

@josephr That sounds like an argument for agnosticism/atheism. My being unconvinced led to many years of identification with agnosticism. Intensive research led to atheism, being convinced that all religion and 'divine revelation' is mostly bunk, and not knowing whether there might be some deistic god, which while perhaps interesting, is largely an irrelevancy until it speaks to me and not through some appointed proxy.

@Rossy92 Actually it's my rationalization for accepting that i don't need to know. That does not eliminate curiosity, it merely means that knowing is unnecessary for me.

If i were to believe anything to do with the afterlife, i think reincarnation would be my favoured belief.

But actually, it's more important for me to accept what i don't know about life and the universe. I love the mystery, and never need the solution except to situational realities; philosophical questions, like religious ones, don't fall into that category for me.

At the age of 70, in a few years or more, i look forward to finding out what happens next; or not. LLOL It's actually exciting.

2

There is not one iota of proof that there is a god but there is a hell of a lot of science that proves that all the holy books are fables! You have some very tall tales in the holy books and I have questioned many religious people about some of them and you can't get a staight answer from them. There most famous answer is "The lord speaks in mysterious ways"!

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Faith is not required because I'm not trying to prove anything exists.

godef Level 7 May 15, 2018
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Faith: belief that is not based on proof:

Agnosticism: Not knowing is not faith.

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I think you say what I think, but in the opposite way, which. agree with my ideas even better.

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Evidence based ......

1

Atheism at 7 on the Dawkins scale strikes me as being as dogmatic as faith at 1 on the Dawkins scale. I believe everyone, devoutly religious or anti-religious, needs to admit that they just plain don't know. That being said, I think all current human religions are crap. Well, all of the ones I know about.

vita Level 7 May 16, 2018
5

How do you figure? There's not much if any effort needed to honestly not believe in something that makes absolutely no sense to believe in....no effort, no faith. The burden of proof does not rest on me for not being convinced...its on anyone making the assertion and the claim. Show me credible, objective, proof and evidence, and I'll change my tune. Until then, I don't believe it, because there's nothing to believe; and unlike theists, I don't need faith to NOT be a believer.

0

If we assume that science is based on logic, then where did the science come from?

It comes from testable evidence that it works like planes, medicine, refrigeration, the internet you're using, etc.

@Rossy92 True, but where did the logic to depend on evidence come from? These are the questions I ask myself from time to time.

Science is just a way to think about and explore our world.

@AstroLou That's exactly right. We have been programmed to make sense of our world even before we reach a cognitive stage; maybe even when we're in the womb. Now, scientists are exploring the possibility that our memories may actually be stored in our DNA. Whether that's true or not, what we're seeing and proving at times is that there is significantly more to our universe than we ever thought possible. So is science as a result of intelligent design? And if so, who were or what was the architect, or engineer if one prefers that professional analogy? I also know that there is so much that we don't know or understand since we are still a relatively baby race. Lol

@josephr

1

So if I make up a god and tell you it’s true. How do you identify this god is fictional inabsence of myadmitting I invented it. If I claim that a god visited me and added to its messages, what hurdleswould I have to jump through to get people to believe me? In short when there is zero way to confirm these claims are not fiction, there is zero good reason to accept them as true.

Sadly, you might not have to jump through many hurdles for a lot of people to believe you. But, for me, I would need to see far more clear and compelling evidence than, you told me so.

3

I’m very certain that unicorns don’t exist, but have no proof. Is my disbelief in them a matter of faith? Can I insist that my disbelief is truth? I find little difference between atheist and agnostic.

1

Good question.

I don't think faith as much as certainty, though one can get the latter from the former.

I'm inclined to think that certainty is a feeling unfounded most of the time by facts, neurologically it's not seated in the same parts of the brain as the knowledge that you would think leads to it at all. It's an emotion.

And while we can make a very convincing argument against God there's some pretty big gaps in our knowledge that lead me to think feeling certainty it's still a big leap. So faith? Kind of.

And I'm ok with uncertainty. I don't think there is a God but I don't have to have it confirmed or over express my confidence about that.

1

For me it doesn't take any faith to say there's no god. I haven't seen any evidence for the existence of god(s) so for me it's not faith it's a fact.

Well, absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence.

@AstroLou I'm not saying that a lack of evidence proves non existence, all I'm saying is I haven't seen any evidence for the existence of any god. The burden of proof doesn't lie with me, it lies with the person making the assertion of existence.

And to answer your point, surely an absence of evidence, while not evidence of absence, does mean unproven, which is where I'm coming from, for me there isn't just a lack of evidence, there's no evidence.

The best I could come up with regarding the existence of any god is 'I don't know' and nor does anybody else. And until such time as something convinces me this is where I am 🙂

@ipdg77 Same here. Show me the ! ?

2

I consider myself agnostic, but atheism is often misunderstood. Refusal to buy into a theistic belief system, or anti-theism, is not faith. It is independence and honesty.

2

I agree. The best we can say is there is no credible evidence to date that would be consistent with a supernatural being who reads our thoughts, punishes us if we don't believe in "him", answers our prayers, etc. and....created all space, time, matter, and energy. Nothing that would stand up to any kind of scientific scrutiny.

Very true. I wonder if that is part of our intended learning. Elicative research says that nothing is impossible until it is proven to be so. So the universe may be the consequence of 'intelligent design', and Universal Intelligence or Universal Consciousness may exist unbeknown to a race which is just a in the context of the universe. Exploratory research says anything is possible but many people need more definitive assumptions. Lol

@josephr Oh yeah? Ever try getting toothpaste back in the tube?

@AstroLou Not since i was about 3. hahaha

2

Many people seem to feel threatened when I say I am agnostic. I wouldn't call myself a "closet agnostic", but I I don't insist on sharing it. Live and let live.

2

I believe that most people who are atheists or agnostics are not so out of faith but rather out of self confidence in their ability to think logically.

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I still hold a glimmer of hope some god or another will reveal her/his self and salvage what is left of my soul. That is highly unlikely but possible even if minutely.

2

I don't know about faith. I just don't believe because it doesn't sound real or possible. God also seems to be unnecessary.

1

I have been in a chat lately with someone that is trying to convince me there is a god! She keeps quoting for the bible as proof even as I continue to let her know the bible can not be factual! Most of the population back the was illiterate and paper wasn't invented for hundred of years. Therefore most of the bible was taken from "Old Wives" tales that were passed down through many generations. We all knw how that kind of thing will get embelished!lol I also asked her about the makeup of heaven as by what she tell me, only christians will be there. I really don't want to be there as I have friends that are Jewish, Muslim and various other religions.

1

I agree. As an agnostic, there is no knowing for sure. It can't be proven one way or another, since the subject and object of faith doesn't rely on external circumstance or material items.

1

That’s why I am 95% Athiest 5% agnostic. We can’t know for sure, either way...

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