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Does free will exist?

I don’t think so, and I find that people that do think it exists, rely on the same faulty logic that theists do. More specifically, they give vague definitions of the concept and keep moving the goal posts. They also often give an argument from utility, which is a logical fallacy.

Please, I do not mean any disrespect with the above analogy. I am far from perfect philosophically, and I am interested in hearing a coherent argument for free will that this backed by neuroscience.

tsacrey 6 June 10
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19 comments

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1

Interestingly, whenever an action is made it happens as a result of an internal dialogue or some sort of stimulus. This means that any physical response originates in a thought or impulse world. It would seem then, that our physical world is an outward expression of a precursive internal experience. Simply put, thought precedes action. The external world, then, is the arena where the internal is played out. So free will? That depends upon where the thought originates from. The collection of firing neurons would have had to have made their decision to act before the physical stimuli requires a response. The suggestion is that the physical world represents a time lapse eliciting actions that have already been played out in the thought world (wherever/whatever) that is. So the physical world is pre-determined. But what influences the thought world? Just a thought🙂

1

People think that at the moment of the Big Bang everything was set in motion and there is no free will. For inanimate matter sure, but not for people.

Lets look at the planets in our solar system. We can determine right now where the planets will be in 5, 10, 100 years accurately. Because planets have no free will. Mars can't say "To hell with this solar system I'm leaving." And then then fly off to deep space headed for another solar system. Earth can't just decided to start rotating the other way.

But people have free will. No matter how much computing power you have you will never be able to predict exactly where and what I will be doing tomorrow& I ended that last sentence with and ampersand even though it makes no sense and is wrong because I felt like it.

Free will!!!!!!!&

Your brain no matter how complex is a collection of neurons. Those neurons are bound by chemistry and physics. Your brain can make decisions but that you have any control over that is an illusion. Even decisiveness is a chemical and physical activity.

1

We have free will to make decisions, act on them and have to face the consequences.

1

Marx took the view that society forms any action and that we are merely pawns to it forces. However it is surprising how many people have been moved to act by his writings

2

I recommend reading The Free Will Delusion by James B. Miles (https://www.amazon.com/Free-Will-Delusion-Illusion-Morality/dp/1784621692).

ejbman Level 7 June 11, 2018
2

We don't have a choice in what happens to us or what other people do -- we do have a choice in how we respond, even if the choices are limited. That's how I feel free will works.

0

I have a choice to comment on this post or not... I could now hit "Submit Comment" or not.

... I can have Sushi tonight or McDonalds.
... I can sit here and browse this awesome website or actually get some work done... ok - bad example there. 😉

In my humble opinion, I think we have free will.

I believe we have the choice to work towards something we want (and maybe achieve our goal), or mope and complain about it (and never achieve).

Sure, there is an element of chance, and I'm not dismissing the possibility that there may be forces that we can't yet identify, that may play a part, but I think Free Will exists.

#TeamFreeWill

scurry Level 9 June 11, 2018
1

No, there can be no such thing as free will. One question that seems to help bring the issue into focus is: free of what? Since our volition is bound by many forces, both blunt material ones, and larger systemic ones such as family, culture, and so on (which reduce to material ones anyway), there cannot possibly be anything free about the will at all. Even if we add indeterminacy into the mix, that doesn't give us what we want. It's no different if I am lead around by the nose via deterministic forces or a roll of the dice: I'm still not in charge, and I'm still being lead around by the nose.

A more interesting question might be whether we have agency, moral or otherwise, and what that could possibly mean in a world without the possibility of free will.

ejbman Level 7 June 11, 2018
1

Free will as in the ability to make choices, yes. If you mean we are 'consciously' making the choice, possibly not, that is being researched (some question over whether consciousness is just observing the choice or making it). Or by free will where the brain is immune to cause and effect, or that free will is NOT made in the brain, is non-deterministic, then no.

[facebook.com]

I really like your response, though the first sentence might need slight clarification. 🙂

The first sentence... When saying free will if you mean in the sense of having the general ability to make decisions then yes I would say there is free will.

0

Free will within the boundries of mans law.

1

I think free will exists, but its limited by various outside forces.

For example, and this may get morbid, but what's to say I don't have the free will to kill anyone at any moment? I could go find a gun or knife and have at it. What stops me?

The limiting factors, in my opinion, are my own empathy for the lives of others. I don't like suffering, so I'd not want the same on others by my hand, no matter what I may suffer from. Additionally, one could argue society has the effect/outcome possibilities of arrest, retaliation from others resulting in pain or death, being shunned/outcast by society, loss of freedoms, etc.

That's how I view it, anyway.

1

Life is like a card game. The cards are shuffled, the order is set but you choose how to play them.

You really consider your will that free? I feel like even choice at that level is deceptive.

@Bignate901 Yet you choose to answer my comment. You choose the words, grammar etc. You could have just left it or said something else. The choice whether or not and how you reply to this, will also be yours.

@273kelvin I doubt it was a choice in the way most people understand it. I was primed by external input and internal chemistry as others have pointed out more eloquently in this thread. Even your card game analogy seems to infer that randomness is the same as freedom.

@Bignate901 Logic and reason are not always truth based.Often it is a qualitative decision. Take for example the copernican revolution. In relativity terms, it makes no difference if the earth revolves around the sun or vice versa. It just that the Ptolemy system was crap and Copernicus was better. There are lots of other bits of science thats not 100% provable truth, like evolution. Its just the best that we have.
Bear this in mind when you talk about free will. You have 2 distinct premises. Your point of view says that you have little or no say in your destiny. Whether or not you smoke or give up. Quit your job or go for that promotion. Stay where you grew up or move. Believe in god or not. Veg out or do that thing. Your standpoint if accepted as universal truth. It would see no motivation for art or any other improvements to the world. Why would anybody bother? Just roll another spliff and leave that unfinished masterpiece where it is. Its not my choice anyway.
My view empowers you. Cards are shuffled and dealt, you have no say in that. What race, class, parents. home town and the thousand natural shocks that flesh is aye to, thats fate. You wanna live longer you can not smoke, watch your weight etc. No guarantees but your odds are improved. If you cheat on your woman or not, stay with or go. Thats how you play the cards. You accept responsibility for your actions good and bad. Try to learn from them and move on.
My point may or may not be true but I think its better.

@273kelvin I feel like you’re basically saying we can’t know for sure but you feel comfortable with the thought you’re in control in a limited capacity. Any deviation would cause humanity to collapse into nihilistic turmoil.

@273kelvin But what if it doesn’t? What if humanity learns how to use this knowledge to improve education, criminal justice, and even art?
What if we learn to use therapy, medications, and perhaps operations to help problem individuals rather than locking them out of sight in hopes they “will” themselves to be better.
Would artists really be harmed by embracing the true source of their inspiration?

@Bignate901 Well let us look at a society where your view prevails. In the arab world inshallah or the will of Allah, is the overriding philosophy. How well do they drive?

@Bignate901 Criminal justice is a good point. If your view was accepted. all pleas would be "not guilty" as I had no choice in the matter. Also any improvements would have to be a conscious decision. made at a bureaucratic level or at the ballot box, thus negating your argument. Democracy would be defunct and we would only have a bureaucracy.

@273kelvin What? Where did I say anything about Islam? Your straw man is lit af.

Where did I say all pleas are “not guilty”?

Democracy is fairly defunct already so I would not blame lack of belief in Jesus, I mean a will.

@Bignate901 It was not specifically Islam that I was referencing. Rather the belief in fate over free will. As for "not-guilty" that is merely a logical extension that model. I have no free will so how can you blame me?
Thats why I think my view is better.

3

It really depends on the definition of free will. The strictest definition leaves little leeway, there is likely no free will. If particles act in any sort of predictable way at the quantum level causing effects at the level we see then the argument is strong that given the alignment of the universe at the moment of creation we were destined to each interaction from then until now and forever. But I don't believe that is actually true.

I believe that the quantum world does act unpredictability even if there is only one possible future or past (meaning discounting the many worlds theory) and so at least in the process of decisions and actions anything could happen to some degree. So the universe can be one single future and past but still means that decisions, actions and reactions along the way were not certain UNTIL they happened.

Just a theory.

CK-One Level 6 June 11, 2018
1

I don’t think it exist

3

I think free will exists, although I can't explain it. But if it doesn't exist, then I have no choice but to think that it does. This makes my head spin.

Coffeo Level 8 June 11, 2018
1

Have you been watching Westworld?

Yes. I started watching season 2, but I realized I need to go back and re watch season 1 because I missed something big there.

2

No, free will does not exist. Your choices are based on numerous environmental factors and the emotional states of self and others, and even political climate. The factors affecting self will are endless.

Livia Level 6 June 11, 2018

And you know these things how?

@Coffeo I don’t know anything. That’s the beauty of slightly academic and philosophical discussions. I am guessing that the way we discuss these things in the UK is a bit different to the other side of the pond. I have heard we sound pretentious. It’s a style of discussion not a statement of truth.

@Livia I am not on the other side of the pond. I am from the UK originally and lived there until I was 26. You are not discussing anything: you are making a set of statements that have no obvious support.

@Coffeo I was just sharing my thoughts in statements. I didn’t realize it was necessary to qualify it with evidence to your exacting standards. You are repeatedly responding to me, I have done nothing to offend than share my opinion, which I thought we were all here to do. For a “freethinker” you are not allowing others to be free, but repeatedly poking me, as if you are looking for some kind of joust. Please do it elsewhere, I have really enough going on in my life to be bothered by an online bluebottle.

1

Hey! Love talking about this question as long as the “talking about” doesn’t shift to “yelling at” due to unnecessarily high level of irrational sensitivity to ppl not agreeing with you lol. That being said, I’m very much on board with you for the free will is a social construct...or as I’ve come to believe like others, an illusion...it seems like this is one of those opinions ppl dismiss as stupid without even considering it. Those that do believe in free will and consider the other side inevitably become outraged bc of perceived implications the argument brings about in their minds, leading to a shit load of rhetorical nonsense that (in my experience) usually concludes with a “you need Jesus” statement.
The strangest thing to me about it though (or maybe the most ironic) is that religiously devout advocates of free will are kind of shouting themselves in the foot. From the standpoint of belief in an omnipotent god who demands obedience and submission from its creations, it is the most supported by the no free will argument. Not only would power god have had absolute control over every aspect of our genes, brains, and environment, but over all the consequences as well (bc god knows everything). So creationists with any philosophical leanings probably aren’t being too terribly honest with themselves if they think of free will as an absolute truth. Also, if god is perfect and omniscient, would god even have free will? God’s inability to act outside of his/her/its/their perfect nature would entail restriction of decisions made...and so many paradoxes seem to spring up when the all knowing omnipotent traits come in ???

I love that. Does God even have free will? That’s such a good question. Could discuss for ages!

@Livia hahaha glad to know someone is on board the train of interest and not blind dogmatic assholery ;I personally don’t see how any conscious being could ever possess real freedom of will bc it couldn’t have controlled it’s own coming into existence. Throw in the all-knowing factor and along with not possessing free will, god really can’t even have the illusion of it like we do!

@ChaseMcKinley This is the reason I really liked the Greek and Norse deities - they are also subject to imperfection, consequences and make choices where they find themselves conflicted. How relatable - no wonder they had their cults!

@Livia very good observation there! At least those cults had deities that were somewhat believable...and they seemed a lot more interesting than the terrifying/ violent dude I grew up having to memorize (occasionally very violent) ancient stories about (as a freaking child!) who’s also intolerant of super asinine things ?

2

Choice is a illusion.

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