Totally agree with you. We also need to teach boundaries. For women we sadly need to show them that setting boundaries is normal, and if she says "No" that's what it means, no explanation required. Men need to understand that a refusal is not an invitation to disregard those boundaries. I am saying men and women, as majority of sexual crimes attributes to men, and women are the victims, but of course this also applies to male sexual victims. Ironically, in those cases most perpetrators are also men. It's a sad and scary place, but maybe one step at a time would do the trick.

Ok. So where do we go for those whose parents did not (and still do not) acknowledge that women ought to be treated as full members of the human race? Remembering that, in Australia at least, there were still specifically discriminatory laws until 1984. That enculturation won't just vanish overnight. Weinstein et. al. are being outed because we now have enough people coming through who've learnt that it's not acceptable. They've been taught by folk who've gone through 'sexual harassment ' training. Equally people of good will need to know what is, and is not sexual harassment to avoid the very damaging false claims. A false claim will set this cause back further than many claims upheld will advance it.

@RobAnybody The only sexual harassment training I've received was through the military and it does little to change things other than attempting to nullify the "I didn't know better" defense. Perhaps other intervention and training exists that would be effective, but from what I've seen, I consider the older generation lost and feel our responsibility is to the next. I feel terrible saying that there is little to nothing we can do for my generation's women, but I really feel it's almost a lost cause at this point. Considering how we elected Trump and how Roy Moore almost won as well, I just feel like it's a lost cause. We need to focus on the next generation. We need the Weinstein's of the world to die.

@DJVJ311 Well I'm glad you consider me "lost". As you note, the only sexual harassment training you've received is from one of the most conservative, patriarchal organisations our society has produced. They are that way for good reason, and are slowly changing for equally good reason (the definition of conservative really). What they are not is leaders in the understanding of the power imbalances between men and women. I think most men are decent folk and when shown how their behaviours hurt others will, not necessarily without complaint, try to change. The better sexual harassment courses are more than a list of don'ts, they will address the uncomfortable subject of male privilege. It needs formal addressing because "privilege" is a REALLY crap word to use in describing the situation, but it's the one we have that best fits. So it requires a large amount of very careful explanation from people who already get it to produce an understanding of what it actually means. You may understand privilege from your own life, many do not and so need the training. And yes, privilege does tie directly into harassment. What reasonable person would harass if they understood just how wrong it is? That lack of understanding is a result and an example of privilege.

@RobAnybody if you are over 30 and molesting people you are a lost cause . If you are over 30 and not molesting people, maybe even standing up for people, you are sadly on the leading edge of change. I consider myself on that leading edge. Roy Moore and Weinstein... Kevin Spacey and Donald Trump... you have training for them? I’m sorry if I sound jaded, but my point is that our focus has to be the next generation... the malleable young.... and it has to be, as you said, about “privilege “ but before it is privilege, it is “otherness.” We need to teach boys and girls to stand with each other and for each other and to see themselves in every person they meet.

@DJVJ311 I am over fifty and have modified my own behaviour in light of what I have learnt. Sexual harassment is much more than "molesting people". I'm a large, very strong man with military experience. I ran theatre crews much as I would a platoon of young male soldiers. It got the job done, BUT women found the environment that created very intimidating. Some responded by becoming more aggressive, others withdrew. Both those outcomes are suboptimal in a theatrical environment. My organisation then sent me on sexual harassment courses (plural). They did so not because I was fondling my colleagues, I would a) have been out on my arse had I done that, b) I was treating them all equally badly, I'd never have fondled one of my soldiers so I was not about to fondle my crew. They did so because I was creating an environment women particularly, and many young men found intimidating. I did not do this out of malice, I did it because I was "mission focussed". The courses helped change that. At the time they felt like punishment for doing nothing more than making sure the work happenned. The stars you mention are the extreme end of harassment, very powerful men knowingly abusing that power. Those types are now being brought low, as they ought. But there's a whole spectrum of harassment behind that leading to their obscene degree of entitlement. That too needs addressing, and doing so by bringing down the same hammer would be utterly disproportionate. (Anecdote by way of illustration)

@RobAnybody I am glad you had programs to explain that for you, but that anecdotal situation doesn’t match my anecdotal situation at all and anecdotal evidence goes only so far when offered to others. My boss has no military experience and the hostile environment he creates isn’t really a “sexual” issue, and being military I write it off, but he could probably use “harassment training” of some sort, so perhaps it is time for some general harassment and hostile worker environment training programs.

@DJVJ311 The best sexual harassment courses deal with the general harassment and bullying precisely because the latter enables the former. The culture of entitlement which condones bullying also gives rise to sexual harassment.

Preserving scarce resources makes your remarks most strategic but crime prevention demands adult perpetrators be warned and trained how to conduct themselves lawfully

Agree, its not just men that need this, women as well.

@Funeralgirl Yes, while both men and women are capable of sexual harassment to either sex, more often than not it's women who are the victims.
They should be taught at a young age to recognize when it happens to them and to speak up about it immediately.

@Paul628 And to recognise when it is not happening. False claims are deeply damaging to the cause of reducing sexual harassment (even when they're prosecuted under malicious claims laws).

Sex ethics begins with vocabulary training with toddlers beginning @ toilet training age and train parents changing diapers not to show bigotry

@Funeralgirl women need to be rewarded for reporting without fear of retaliation and perpetrators need to cooperate with training rather than entrench in denials. ...egregious cases are cause for dismissal and financial penalties

^^^This^^^ It needs to be addressed in sex ed at the very least.

Haven't read it in quite a while but my mother loaned me her copy of "Every Mother's Son" by Judith Arcana. It had some good stuff that helped us both.

@kmdskit3 I will look for that. I am always looking for ways to improve my parenting.

@Ruetres Like I said it's been many years but a few things from it have stuck with me. Talking about it is making me want read it again. If you read it I would be curious to hear your opinion.

@kmdskit3 I will be sure to give you some feedback..

@MsOliver On the contrary, I know many men, some of them well spoken and extremely polite, who could do with sexual harassment training. These men quite literally cannot see that what they are doing is wrong. They're being polite, the women are giggling so they must enjoy it, right? These blokes aren't hateful leering slobs, they're honest decent men who have been brought up in an environment where their behaviour is normal and acceptable. Their wives and girlfriends have been brought up in the same traditions and share their views. You may as well ask a fish about water as prosecute these men. In fact prosecution is more likely to produce foaming-at-the-mouth MRAs than any useful change.

@RobAnybody If you think sexual harassment training is going to change that behavior and culture, you are dead wrong. If it is as deeply embedded in the culture as you assert, the practice will perpetuate itself unless it becomes abundantly clear that there WILL be a price to pay.

@wordywalt I have seen it do so. Not by itself, but in concert with enforcement. Your original post assumes that all men have the social background to understand that what they are doing is wrong. They don't. Just as misogyny is a learnt behaviour so is its opposite. Simply punishing the ignorant will only produce more MRAs and those apologists of whom MsOliver erroneously assumes I am one.

Many (most?) men, myself included, do not "see that". You don't have to be a leering, slobbering creep to sexualy harass women in particular. Why women in particular? Systemic power imbalance. Yes men can be sexualy harassed, but it is far less likely because of the power imbalances built into our society. Not least, and this is my personal point of failure, is sheer physical strength. That's an imbalance for which we're just going to have to compensate legislatively as it's not going away. I don't know how you approach your day, but unless I'm reminded I rarely think about the disparity between my strength and that of my colleagues, particularly the women. The women, however, assure me that, even though they know and trust me, the awareness never quite goes away. Just making men aware that they are MUCH stronger than most of the women they meet, and that this disparity is slightly threatening would be one positive outcome. If you think this is not true, explain the prevalence of prison rape jokes.

And for those who do not get early training there are sexual harassment courses.

And it's worth remembering that we only ditched the explicitly discriminatory laws in the last fifty years, including stuff which originated with Richard the Third.

Bollocks. What is now wrong was perfectly acceptable (and in some places still is) not very long ago. Your asking people to adjust their childhood training with no assistance or support. If they fail to do so you will punish them. What a wasteful approach. First you have the victim who at the very least has had their day disrupted by an unneeded incident. Then you have the perp who a) doesn't quite understand why he's being punished b) will have at least his day, if not his career blighted by the incident. Then there's the time HR and Management have to invest in sorting it out, and if your in a small enough workplace those two may be the one person. Then you have the lingering resentments and suspicions the incident creates. All this can be avoided by a short course in not-being-a-chimp. As to being civilised, listen to some seventies rock. The lyrics give you a very good idea of the sexual harassment mores of the time. Many of us in the workplace had our formative years in the seventies. Just assuming we kept up is a recipe for disaster.

@RobAnybody I suppose I overestimate people, but I assumed most people's childhood training included not grabbing at other people. But you are right that some people are clueless but I don't agree that someone that tone deaf could be changed, or convinced, by a two hour course at work.

@Benmonk Harassment, and the teachings that deal with it, covers far more than simply "grabbing at other people". It can be as unintended as a big bloke intruding into a small woman's personal space. He doesn't need to be prosecuted or condemned for this, he just needs to stop doing it. Most men will stop, IF they are made aware of it. A course by an outside person is a neutral way of making the bloke aware of his behaviour. This takes the pressure off the woman and avoids any resentment that a direct confrontation or report through the boss might generate.

@RobAnybody And not very incidentally, avoids complaints on the bloke's permanent record.

@Benmonk I blocked @RobAnybody weeks ago so I am not surprised other Atheists want him behind our WALL unwelcome to visit from DOWN UNDER sexist bigotry sucks I have zero tolerance for perpetrators of any kind

I worked at Iowa Civil Rights Commission and I can precisely define hostile work environment and unwanted sexual communication in workplace chains of command. ...the cure for non-compliance with law includes sensitivity training for all in the company including vendors visiting routinely there. ...a grocery store must prominently place sexual harassment policy enforcement posters for all to read including the Pepsi or egg delivery person who wants to grab the pussy of a cashier

You'd probably get a lot from it. What do you do when you're walking behind a woman on a dark street? It's not direct sexual harassment, but if you continue to walk behind her, and worse get closer, you're probably making her very nervous.

Rob... walking behind a woman in a dark alley is not really SEXUAL harassment. Yes, it might make her nervous. If two men followed YOU down a dark alley you might be nervous too. So might I. In that scenario, it's best not to walk down dark alleys alone regardless of your gender.

You don't need an accusation to harass. You don't even need to consciously harass someone to make them feel uncomfortable with you. One of the things many men take from sexual harassment training is a better awareness of the systemic power imbalance between men and women, and for most of us a better awareness of just how much our greater physical size and strength ( a generalisation, but mostly true) is intimidating. Just of itself, not attached to any behaviours.

@macrobius Yep. However people can and do confuse the two. I agree with every part of your statement.

People are not necessarily aware that those behaviours are unacceptable outside their groups. If a person is raised to think it is fine they need to be educated, not punished, into the legal requirements. Better to make the lines clear before anything happens.