24 2

Is being self-sufficient only rewarded in “winning” people?

So throughout my life I’ve tried to become a stronger (emotionally) person. I want to become an independent, fully functional person. But sometimes I feel like going against the status quo is not going well. I see people who are attractive, witty, or just “winning” sorts of people, who get away with doing whatever they want. They can be assholes, and get complimented and loved by everyone around them. “They follow the beat of their own drum” they all say. Or women want them, despite being heartbroken by truly awful dickheads all the time, but when I want a casual dating, and want to be relatively picky about who I date, all of a sudden I’m a “fuck boy” or should just give up. I don’t know, this sort of double standard is fucked up in my opinion. What do you think?

By Zachvanallen
Options Favorite Like

Enjoy being online again!

Welcome to the community of good people who base their values on evidence and appreciate civil discourse - the social network you will enjoy.

Create your free account



I know how you feel. I'm a loser. I have been woefully underemployed all my life. I've had a lot of issues I've had to deal with in my life. I am a loner, and introvert, and a bit eccentric. I've never really had anybody in my corner in my life. I've never had a mentor close family close friends Church Etc to Stand By Me. I had to be strong, self-sufficient and independent all my life. Now about those successful assholes. A lot of them are narcissist who will do anything say anything to get what they want. If your ethical and honest it's a lot tougher in this world. In my opinion dishonesty seems to be considered normal.

valerie55 Level 4 July 11, 2018

One person I love, admire and respect in my life is a friend I've known for just over five years.

He has been unemployed regularly, for various reasons and he struggles with personal issues. He is unemployed now and life is tough for him.

But I say this without a shadow of a doubt - he has restored my faith in humanity.

He is honest, witty, gentle and kind. He has encouraged and supported me in a way no one else has done in my life. I trust him completely. He's the best person I know.


Not at all, l'm a loser and I'm self-sufficient!

Sticks48 Level 8 July 11, 2018

Then you are not a loser.

@rayfunrelax l have put alot of hard nothing into being a loser and l'm not going to let anyone take that from me. 😊


You lack confidence. People you see who look like "winners" or are labeled that way or are "assholes" have confidence that you don't. People respond to confidence. Sometimes those same guys get called "fuck boy" but they don't give a shit and they definitely don't write a post about it. They move on until they find someone who responds.

You seem too concerned with how people see you in comparison to how you see others. Something I've always found helpful is that you're comparing their highlight reel to your blooper reel. You don't see them when they're low, and if you do you're not labeling them a "winner" so you don't compare yourself to them.

I'm divorced for about 4 years now and haven't been in another relationship and haven't tried to find anyone. My self-confidence sucks but I also know that I have a few goals focusing on myself, health & financial for the most part. I'm working to get out of that mind set that I need another person for validation or conformity. If I meet someone great that's one thing, but since I'm not worrying about it I've excelled at work, ran my first full marathon, moved to Florida (that one's questionable) but done a lot of things that I thought were lofty goals. I normally wouldn't talk that much about myself but I feel like I still am or working to get out of a similar boat.

Once I conquer everything I want to alone, I have a feeling that I'll have very little trouble finding a great person to spend my time with.

mattersauce Level 7 July 11, 2018

Brilliant post. and hopefully an inspiration for others who are feeling a bit unworthy!


There's always been a double standard. It's even worse for women, trust me on this. It's based, seemingly, on looks and how well one fits into normative behavior. More about looks if one is female. So, normative behavior these days is pretty shitty and shallow so those are the "winning" people. I find it impossible to play that game and not be totally disgusted with myself. So i am who i am, it takes me forever to find a job or a lover and i almost never get promoted. But I'm a good person, i am generally happy with my behavior and my life. But I'll never be rich nor highly sought after.

moonmaid Level 8 July 11, 2018

I couldn't agree more. smile002.gif

Love your attitude !


I am afraid life can be pretty unfair sometimes. I read somewhere recently that good-looking people get better jobs, earn more money and attract more members of the opposite sex. This just seems to be a fact of life. Looks are superficial and when you really get to know someone it’s not their looks that keep the attraction going it is their personality. Some of the most attractive people are just hollow shells. All we can do is just be the best versions of ourselves and hope a like minded partner will be attracted to these qualities. It is fine being an independent person to a certain extent but we are social animals so don’t try to plough too lonely a furrow!

Marionville Level 9 July 11, 2018

Ive spent a little brain power observing those that society calls "winners" and "Successful". Based on what? Whose goal other than mine do I have to reach? Am I not intelligent enough to know what makes me happy? As far as the dating thing goes, I've discovered that every woman that rejected me did me a favor by steering me away from a possible toxic relationship and steered me into valued ones. If you understand that there's a bright side to everything you will feel less anger etc about things in life.

IAJO163 Level 7 July 11, 2018

Well thought out , and well stated !


Don't compare yourself to other people.

Ellatynemouth Level 8 July 11, 2018

We often sabotage our own success and happiness because, for whatever reason, we believe we don't deserve it. This is often a subconscious thing and we don't even realise it's happening. Rational, well-thought-out decisions end up blowing up in our faces and we are left wondering why.

I'd suggest finding the cause of your own self-deprecation; and rooting it out.

RedneckProfessor Level 6 July 11, 2018

I feel that being self-sufficient is counter-culture as is. Our status quo wants us to be in relationships and married with house and kids and stuff. So to basically not follow that norm and live independently with acceptance of our own feelings and doing our own things, that alone is winning in the battle of "marching to our own drums".

As for the universal asshole versus good guy arguement, here is my winning statement: Just be you. A woman will or will not be attracted as they see fit. We ladies aren't all one size fits all either. The more open and flexible, the more likely you are to find the one you really want to be with.

Hope that helps. Best of luck out there dude.

Chilton704 Level 5 July 11, 2018

I’m not sure what you’re asking. Are you referring to something specific you’ve experienced? Are you saying that you’ve seen a lot of arrogant jerks who seem to be able attract women, but when you act like an arrogant jerk, it blows up in your face and you’re not sure why? Did you reject someone and suffer some kind of negative consequence? I’m just trying to get what you’re asking. For some reason, at this exact moment, I want to understand where you’re coming from.

Hermit Level 7 July 11, 2018

Yup, I have known people who are assholes who attract people; they are not even necessarily attractive, but have some elusive quality that I cannot see or relate to. I also know a few people who are attracted to assholes for whatever reason--because they are attractive, witty, or have that facet that I cannot see.

However, at my great age, I cannot see that the greatest majority of people are attracted to the assholes. When they are, the a-hole usually has money or the person who is attracted has self-esteem or other issues. Most couples are not comprised of an a-hole and a non a-hole.

I have also seen people who are not "good" at attracting members of the opposite sex (or same sex, doesn't matter) who blame being a "nice guy" or a "nice woman" on their inability to find a partner. Being nice is a good quality, but I have met many nice guys who are boring as hell. I also know a lot of nice women who are also boring as hell. I find that people in general have bland personalities--maybe that's why the witty a-holes stick out.

OP, I am not saying that you have a bland personality because I do not know you, but this comment sticks out in your post: [ I ] want to be relatively picky about who I date." There is nothing wrong with that, but other people might well want to be picky about whom they date, and if you are not showing the qualities that the women whom you want to date like, then you cannot blame them for being attracted to men who do have those qualities.

I am picky not only about whom I date, but whom I have as a friend. Since my last relationship ended almost a year ago, I have not met any men who have contacted me on dating sites or encouraged any men who approached me offline. Simply said, they just do not attract me. I have few friends, my choice, because I am not willing to spend time in the company of people who cannot hold a conversation about more than TV shows, who voted for Trumpass, or know nothing about the subjects that interest me. This means that I spend a lot of time alone, and I prefer it that way.

If women are not interested in you, you cannot change them. If you are not willing to date women who are interested in you because you are picky, that is your choice.

Your path is your path, but speaking from my own experience, I did not become an independent, emotionally strong person until I was in my 40s. It was, and is, ironic, that once I decided that the opinions of others did not matter much and did buck the status quo, I became "attractive" physically (lost 100 pounds) and personality wise. I live by the adage "know thyself" and to stop blaming others for what might be our own shortcomings or what we simply do not see in ourselves.

Again, not saying that's you, but it worked for me.

Gwendolyn2018 Level 7 July 11, 2018

A LOT of those seemingly happy people are really extraordinarily unhappy. My worst bully in jr high and HS is in jail for triple murder!

Some TMI...but fuckit, I've always tried to be fairly open and you are bearing your soul a bit here. If others aren't comfortable reading our stuff, they don't have to.

I'm probably someone others look at as "successful" or "happy". I'm tall (weirdly important for too many women) athletic, crazy deep voice, professionally successful, so far if I want to be in a relationship takes less than a year. Although I often self-impose celibacy for my own emotional health. Hopefully I'm mostly an asshole to people who deserve a kick in the ass, and some people do deserve it plus emotional health mandates not being nice to every asshole or bitch who happens into your life.

I was also raised by a dad who didn't have a clue how to show love, we were in several fistfights growing up, I was raped as kid (warned you TMI, but my involvement in a survivor group is public here), bullied badly until my sophomore year-even to the point of broken bones, struggled in school but now I have a masters and may get a PhD, my ex couldn't have kids and something I kinda always wanted won't happen, diagnosed with PTSD and depression....

The point isn't about my struggles, but overcoming obstacles. You're a young guy. A grad student, someone with ability and ambition. Figure out what's important to you, what you can be wildly passionate about. Know yourself so you understand what makes you look in the mirror every week or so and say, "I like the man you are becoming", pursue a realistic career plus your own passionate hobbies.

For me CBT in therapy was critical, although many therapists suck so be choosy who you go to. For me meditation has also been phenomenal. Find friends who value you, love you but care enough to tell you hard truths. NOBODY is really self sufficient. Our relationships define us....lots of stuff here and you've already been deluged with random advice from strangers.

Love YOU, plan for the future and know none of your plans will turn out exactly right. You're a sensitive, caring man who deserves a good life. If you're mostly kind to people who are kind in return you'll be the guy other's think of as having it all together and maybe you'll help others in time too.

Good luck dude, you're vulnerability and honesty is precious.

educatedredneck Level 7 July 16, 2018

Figure out your goals and work toward them. Always work on self-improvement goals -- better financial management, better health, better grammar/math skills, etc. The world is at your fingertips with Google so learn something new weekly and watch videos to learn new skills too. Keep up with current news and learn real information about real political ideas/concepts.

Stop worrying about finding a significant other....when the time is right, the right person will show up. In the meantime, you owe it to yourself to be the best possible version of you.

SkotlandSkye Level 8 July 11, 2018

I feel like you are conflating a few things here... Or at least not illustrating a clear connection.

  1. Being self sufficient is more about personal security and ideally a self contained happiness. In context of a "winner" it is like solitaire it is between you and you. But socially speaking winners are more a result of collaborative efforts which being able to be self sufficient tells you nothing about collaborative skills.

  2. Some guys attract girls and break their hearts so other people shouldn't judge you for being picky in your dating....

I fully agree you should set whatever standards you want for dating but the context here is just so disconnected.

KyleDavis Level 4 July 11, 2018

I feel like the secret is to never give up. Just keep on trying, over and over again. Even when it hurts. Even when you’re tired. Even when you wonder if it’s still worth it. Just keep trying. At everything you do, for everything that matters to you. That’s how you win.

katofjungle Level 2 July 19, 2018

People are weird. I have experienced and seen what you speak about. They react to certain things. People are mostly predictable though. You can try to use that to your advantage depending on who you interact with. If being yourself isn't working, then maybe try to fake it, or if you can't and are too genuine then just be you and wait for someone who will appreciate you. Easier said than done, I know.

Piece2YourPuzzle Level 7 July 11, 2018

Faking it , works for no one, in the long run . You may appear to make headway , but it won't last . And as difficult as it is now , being a liar won't make things easier .

There’s value in “fake it till you make it!” There’s scientific evidence that pretending to smile in the for an extended period actually causes people to feel happier and eventually they genuinely smile.

@katofjungle Faking a smile is one thing . Pretending you're a surgeon , when the fact is , you're a warehouseman , is quite something different .


I have come to believe that the assholes do have the majority of power (because they are assholes). My theory has been proven time and time again (to myself). I have no idea how that can be changed. I don't think that I am one and therefore I find it hard to act like one (intentionally anyway) so I just be myself and although my uniqueness may upset some people there are also others that appreciate it. My point being is that you will never get everyone to like you or accept you so throw that notion away. My experience has been that those who go against the status quo are the most interesting and strongest people out there. Strive for quality not quantity in your life and may I just add that I think you have the right idea about being strong and independent. smile002.gif

patchoullijulie Level 8 July 11, 2018

Learn to play a game
Chess is good start
Poker ain’t bad as well
Tha gaming experience is good for personal success

Antidronefreeman Level 8 July 11, 2018

I think you answered your own question. Try being an asshole every once in a while. What is with this nonsense about trying to get 3 and 1/2 billion broads to like you? Delete that "I'm a good listener" crap from your bio also that music college stuff unless you can play Crazy Train on your oboe. No woman is pining for an oboe player. You are broadcasting the message that youre willing to be shit on as long as some woman will show me their rack. Not everyone likes you. So what? Not everyone likes me and I'm friggin wonderful. You have to learn, and you can, to not give a fuck about some things.
Your pal,

Anonbene Level 8 July 11, 2018

You do you, I do me and everyone strive to cause or do no harm. Do NOTHING to ANYONE that you would NOT want done to you. Love EVERYONE in your human family. Some things are really easy to understand if you just take a minute to think about it.

jlynn37 Level 8 July 11, 2018

How many "winners" commit suicide? Get rid of your envy... do not measure life on being able to do what you want... trump can't watch porn in the white house! Grow up.

GipsyOfNewSpain Level 8 July 11, 2018

Really ? What makes you think he doesn't watch porn , not only in the white house , but most likely on Air Force one , his limo , and his boat as well .

@Cast1es Funny... you didn't care about the comments of "winners" committing suicide... your concern is that you know trump watches porn... funny.

@GipsyOfNewSpain I have no idea why winners chose to committ suicide , wouldn't know how to change their minds , assuming we were in a conversation , and I was aware of their interest in committing it , and at this point in my life , I'd be willing to consider the fact that , there are circumstances in which , it's a legitimate choice . There are occasions when fur baby parents , who love their pets , will chose to have them put down rather than force them to deal with whatever the problem is . I think there are occasions when we should show our human loved ones , the same grace .


(I'm so confused....) sorry.

MissaDixon Level 7 July 11, 2018

The world is full random events that effect you in numerous ways. Unfortunitly they effect some people in more positive way and leave others in the dust. I'm one of those in the dust.

freedom41 Level 7 Feb 8, 2019

Not sure what you're saying. If you mean that you want casual hook ups without consequences, then you're not someone I'd ever want to date.

If you mean you want to be picky about who you date, since you're male, it's up to you to make the first move, ask women out, etc. If aggressive females come after you, just thank them and say you're not interested.

By the way, this website has a bit of a learning curve for dating.

If you answer the profile questions and write your profile, listing your hobbies and interests, you'll earn website points, and members can get to know you.
Commenting on posts and writing your own earns more points. At level two you can private message people, and at level eight you get an agnostic T-shirt.

The website uses profile algorithms to find member matches, so the more details one includes, the better the match.

Many women prefer to see a written profile talking about interests, hobbies, and backgrounds that can be quickly perused to find compatible partners.

In case you didn't know yet, to find members near you, click on the "Browse" button at the top of the page, then on "Members," and enter your preferred search parameters.
Click on the "Discuss" button, then "Nearby" to find members near you also.
Or click on the "About" button at the top left of the page to find links to FAQ or the website tutorial.

birdingnut Level 8 July 11, 2018
Write Comment
Agnostic does not evaluate or guarantee the accuracy of any content read full disclaimer
  • Agnostic.com is the largest non-profit community for atheists, agnostics, humanists, freethinkers, skeptics and others happy without religion!