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I'm reading Michael Wolff's "The Fire and Fury," the expose of the workings of the Trump White House. My concern is, I want to believe that things are really as chaotic as Wolff describes, that Trump is really as daft and scatterbrained as all the people around him describe. If that's the case, then I've been absolutely right to be telling all my conservative friends that Trump was the worst possible choice America could have made.

I shouldn't want that. His politics aren't mine, but he is President of the United States and if something awful happens I want there to be reasonable, smart people responding to it. The Trump depicted in Wolff's book is not that man.

And as a critical thinker, I know I need to be extra careful when I come across something that affirms my own emotional biases.

My problem is, it's tough to piece out what's real and not real from Wolff's style of presentation, which is narrative rather than journalistic. And especially if the big picture Wolff paints is accurate -- one of as much cooperation, goodwill, and mutual trust as a Borgia family reunion -- his sources all have agendas of their own, and so are inherently unreliable.

What are your thoughts?

ErikGunderson 6 Jan 9

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17

My concern is that if enough of Wolff’s work is found to be exaggerated, it provides cover for more creation of “fake news”, and allows his supporters to deny the credible stories within the book or the work of other journalists.

The whole of the US media at the moment is a complete embarrassment, it really is like kids squabbling, only lives are on the line... Have you seen the interview with Wolff on Colbert from last night?

I'm hoping that he really does have the audio recordings he claims to have.

If Wolff has audio . . . . . there is NO exaggerating trump's tweets. EVERYTING about trump gets turned into a he said she/he said situation so I do no think the book will be that big of a 'fake' news thing.

@Zoidburg what happened?

16

I don't have to rely on other people's description of their interactions with the man, all I have to do is listen to him speak and know what he as already done, to realize he is toxic for this country and humanity in general.

EXACTLY - 2 functioning synapsis is pretty much all it takes.

15

There has been enough evidence already to prove what an immense disaster Trump is. It does not really matter what the details about the chaos in the WH are. His vileness, his childish narcissism, his incompetence, his absurd political opinions, his misogyny, his racism are all on public record.
So in my opinion, what people with a brain have to figure out and what is more important is really how to turn the US into a proper democracy where all citizens who vote do the voting based on facts rather than the absurd billion dollar click-bait we have seen.
It is absolutely depressing not that some disgusting guy like Trump exists, but that millions of voters actively brought him into power. Unless somebody figures out how to heal that collective madness, we are doomed.

And Hillary is the better option? Just curious?

@Zoidburg, absolutely yes. Let's assume that the bulk of the claims about Clinton are true: she's corrupt or at least corruptible, and indulges in petty mendacity to assuage her own ego and ambitions. That's pretty much what we always get in a politician, right? There's no doubt that she's smart even if occasionally unwise, there's no doubt she has a wealth of experience and a powerful network of contacts, and that she can present a reasonable public face to her actions.

Basically, if she's made of the same stuff as her husband, that I can live with in a President. Bill Clinton was a very good President even at the same time he was not a particularly good man.

While Clinton would perhaps not be as morally uplifting as Obama was (and Obama was imperfect, too, lest we forget) she would've been a damn sight better than what we've got now! Definitely she was the lesser of the two evils.

@Zoidburg Yes of course, by all means, and that should be obvious to everyone within just a few seconds. For starters she is not mad nor a sociopath like Trump. She is also no a misogynist or racist.

@josmi6699 You don't know what she's done then, do you.

@Zoidburg i do, at least as much as you do.

Clinton would have been a much better president than Trump. She is a very intelligent woman, who has been working for the underdog her whole career. She has been constantly under attack her whole career, and handled it with composure. There have been many vicious lies made up about her.
With that said, I didn't want her as the Democratic candidate, because there seems to be an unjustified hatred towards her.

@Eazyduzzit indeed!

@josmi6699 For another thing, she never would have gotten away with anything. Too many people were lying in wait for her to make a little mistake - and she would have - her name isn't Mary.

10

The fact remains, Trump would not have won if not for the Russian help. Trump would not be a financial giant if not for the Russian government. Trump is indeed one who can be controlled by the stronger in power. Trump is NOT really bright, as we see and hear from his childish tweets.
the book is merely an inside view from a point of view. However it does fit well with the accusations against this president. I do believe Trump is an incompetent fool.

EMC2 Level 8 Jan 9, 2018

LOL That's one of those alternate facts, IE what the old folks used to call a lie,

I too don't know how much "Russian" help played a role here. Much less in my estimation than the poor missteps the Democratic party, Mrs. Clinton made in promoting her presidency.

10

Does the book really matter? Trump's tweets are damning enough. I saw his biographer on a cable news channel just yesterday and she spoke about Trump's defensiveness. Don't challenge his thinking! He's labelled himself a very "stable genius." His behavior on camera is enough for me.

10

I believe that 45 is a quack. A super rich quack. He’s a liar and a cheat. So is his family.

As much as I dispise him and his VP, our Congress and Senate are the ones who elected him.

They elected him, because they knew they could get him to do what they wanted him to do.

Most of it’s probably true. It’s differentiating between the tripe and truth, that’s the problem.

You got it, trump is the puppet of the gop/republican sneate and congress. 2018 is here, the thinking people must work to get that turned around.

@silverotter11 ... a puppet of the GOP? They'd have rather had any of the other republican presidential candidates I'm quite sure. Trump is an illiterate, ignorant conman who is only about himself... NOT controllable, not even very predictable... look at his history of pimping for the democrats, crossing the aisle...

@BobFenner just as the Russians looked for someone they could control so too the gop. The thing is trump IS controlable, flattery and money. It is russia who pimped trump NOT trump getting anything over on putin. The gop needed someone who would sign ANYTHING they put in front of him. trump was tailor made for the gop agenda.

@silverotter11 Did the GOP choose Trump at all? Not that I recall... in fact, there were moves by folks to oust him, not allow him party affiliation. I do agree w/ you re buying his attentions. Don't know much/enough to have reasonable confidence re Russia's control of Trump, nor the GOPs... Don't think he has signed everything put in front of him. the only agenda DonT is steadfast in promoting is his own; and that barely known even to him, and changeable.

@BobFenner Did you read the highlights of the Steele dossier that Feinstien just leaked? I still say russia has a big part in what is happening in the trump administration. I really hope at some point we get to hear the truth.

9

Oh, the trumpling, the worst president in us history and he isn't quite done yet. He has taught us what a maniacal malignant narcissistic manbaby can do if he has the support of a congress that does not have it's peoples interest at heart. The book? Not necessary, but it is causing the trumpling to lose is mind a bit more....he may get removed from office before he can even be impeached. He is a racist misogynistic coward. I hope the book covers this...haha.

FWIW I am still ranking Buchanan lower than Trump. But I'm now hard-pressed to decide if Trump is second-from-the-bottom or if he edges out just above Millard Fillmore.

YMMV.

@ErikGunderson Don't forget Andrew Johnson....I think he was the worst before trump....maybe he will come out of his grave and give the trumpling a NYAH!

@ErikGunderson Oh, and I forgot, good one! MILLARD FILLMORE! hahaha....well played, sir, well played.

9

I think things are that bad... Trump is, like, really stupid. His narcissism knows no bounds. His insecurity may very well start a war and on and on... He is undermining free speech and freedom of the press as well as the independence of the judiciary. He is dangerous and should be removed from office.

Nah, he's all about mind games, he's a master. He knows exactly what he's doing. There's absolutely no way an idiot can achieve what he has, come on, now!

"Corporal Hitler" (First World War) managed to terrorize the world- he read into the foolish tendencies of an educated population. How much easier it would be to derail an uneducated population, whose main entertainment is watching the Jerry Springer show or listening to some TV evangelist!

@Zoidburg This is what republicans believe as well as trump supporters. He rid the US of environmental regulations, helps the very rich and strips the common person of health care and dignity.

8

I believe the author over trump and his cronies every day. Now if only the Pubs would stop defending him. Blue wave coming in November.

Mmm; I'd REALLY like to see a strong/er third party influence in USA politics. A friend overseas once told me: "Bob, you could line up all your Republicans and Democrats and cut their heads off and put them back on any body. In fact, that sounds like a good idea".

8

I wish we had a respectable man or woman in the white house. I wish he had a shred of dignity or honor... I do. But we don't. We have a pathological liar with such a fragile ego. He disgusts me and I'm reading that same book with a grin on my face. This is what happens when morons don't care and vote for a guy who grabs women by the pussy just cuz he can. smh...

The bigger picture is trump is a puppet for the republican/gop party. The hay day of the super rich and big corporations was 1890-1930. WE are almost there socio-economically.

@silverotter11 I sense the GOP is aware that they have a slipping grasp on a multi-sided sword in Trump.... it is cutting them deeply and less so in several ways; and will continue to do so. They will rue these days to come.

@silverotter11 Trump is definitely not a puppet of the republican agenda. Some believe Bannon was , some believe it is the establishment. Trump is NOT republican nor will he ever be. He is an idiot with a dangerous ego.

7

I will probably not be reading the book. Just like my intuititive understanding of religion, I KNEW trump was not a good choice for president. I knew about his mafia ties, I knew that no U.S. banks would loan him money and that Russia did and when the pussy grabbing tape came out I thought for sure it would sink him. When NONE of that did I knew the gop was solidly behind their puppet because the stupid s.o.b. would sign ANYTHING the gop wanted. I don't think the gop thought trump would be as horrible as he is but hey got their tax scam done and will now go for ALL the other social programs put in place after the 1930's depression. The socio-economic conditions of the 1890's is the true goal of the gop/republican party.

7

A reporter was allowed unfettered access to the Whitehouse. This alone is irrefutable evidence that the Trump administration is absolutely incompetent. I can't think of a president I liked(while they were in office) but I can't recall one being incompetent enough to allow a reporter to be present in a publicly verifiable way.

My confirmation bias aside, there are interviews in which other people have verified that conversations with Wolff had occurred and that they did in fact call Trump stupid, but insist misinterpretation. "'If you can get this idiot elected twice, you would achieve something like immortality in politics," The person who said that, confirmed that quote, just says it was sarcasm. What is the sarcastic meaning? These people are not only incompetent but don't have loyalty to the guy.
[abcnews.go.com]

All of Trumps advisers in the Whitehouse have their own agendas that do not align with the president and are willing to speak to a reporter without insisting it was wholly off the record? That means there are tons of agendas in the Whitehouse that do not align with the interests of this country which again highlights the incompetence of the people that installed the staff.

Wolff's big picture aside, the details reveal what should be catastrophic flaws.

This isn't the nail in the coffin. This might be the hammer Trump will use to build his own coffin. But then we have Pence.

If I remember correctly, "Pence" was elected Governor of Indiana in 2015 and his approval rating was already falling injust one year. What difference will it make if Trump is gone; his cabal of incompetents and thieves will still be there to carry on the corruption.

@Diogenes but will pense be as good a puppet for the gop as trump?

@silverotter11 Pence is a religutard. He's also very much into self-preservation because he believes 'god' wants him to be President. It's likely he won't be as deferential to Putin and Russia, but he'll be a good little republican soldier because Jeebus told him to.

@silverotter11 Trump is doing everything he said he was going to do, given enough time, WHEN ONE READS BETWEEN THE LINES: creates massive unemployment, start a nuke war if he can, ramp up pollution and global warming, shut down dissention by putting a strangle hold on the internet..... on and on, forever! To the 'whole world' these are very dangerous criminals.

7

My thoughts are things re as bad as Wolf describes. This is not the first time we have heard of the going on in the present White House. I know of Trump long before he was president. I remember back in the 1970s he was sued twice by the Justice Dept. It was downhill from there. I have hope as Senator Graham, pretending to be an admirer, as well as Generals Kelly, Mathison and McMasters.

Yeah, I think it is hard to fabricate in entirety a massive story. I think there’s likely truth in the book but the hard part is discerning where it is between any intentional exaggerations or any unconscious biases and reality. I’d love to examine the book but it’s not going to be a priorty of mine.

6

I think the truth is somewhere between the sides that depose Trump. As to figuring where exactly the truth is, I suppose that’s best handled where effectively the sides can be argued. Right now the court of public opinion says Trump is pretty bad, and from what I’ve witnessed with my own two eyes and ears, Trump is not fit for presidency. Maybe the idea of him got him into office but I think from a psychological perspective he is a scary man.

5

I haven't read the book yet, but I plan to. I have several personal insights as to the political reality and the social state of our nation:
Trump is an Ignoramus, if you listen to him speak he is abjectly inarticulate.Still 38 percent of the nation actually support and approve of his performance, Trump is exactly as advertised again the American people voted for him, That speaks volumes about the intellectual state of this nation. Donny is the Pus , the people.. close to half of the people that voted are the infection. We need a paradigm shift in this countr,y an intellectual renaissance for things to improve. I don't have answers on the macro scale just my small circle of friends and family we endeavor to take care of the planet and keep an open mind, question everything and Be kind to each other and respect other beings. I fear for the future of the nation and the well being of the planet. We could be at a tipping point but history shows us the decline of historical empires follow a similar trajectory as ours, buckle up kids its going to get worse before it gets better.

Corvus (the Crow?); do you have ideas, suggestions on how, as individuals, perhaps collectivized we can trend toward "intellectual renaissance" in the US? Secondly, as you mention (and I agree) the other aims you list? I did a few years of H.S. science teaching, thinking along w/ taxes and conscription to pay my debt to society... and write, make images, presentations urging people to gain perspective, love of their own lives through appreciation of the living world... but REALLY don't like the spiraling down sensation at times.

It's never going to get better. Is that being too pessimistic ?

4

You've nailed it! As much as I truly detest 45, every single time I have the urge to say "say ya so!", I'm deeply saddened that this is what and who we've come to. They say he tapped into the anger a lot of people were feeling. What really created that anger? Was it the feeling of disenfranchisement by ignorant white racists, who simply couldn't handle a well-educated, mixed-race man as President? Was it the tea partiers, who were dead set against any democrat? Where was the actual rationale in all of that, or was it ALL emotionally-based? I will absolutely admit that many of my feelings regarding 45 are very emotional in nature. However, I also have 40 years of observation of the man. I have the facts about things he's done. I also happen to believe the stories of women who have said he's committed crimes against them. There are facts surrounding those allegations as well.
When exactly did we become a nation that ignores FACTS? The truth is non-negotiable.
When did it become permissible to dispute what is undeniable?
I'm going to put a big chunk of the blame for this right at the feet of lawyers.
They've been twisting the truth of things for so long to benefit whomever is signing their checks, that it's permeated the society and created an alternate reality. It's damned near Orwellian. But I digress. This is about 45 and Wolff's book. I also tend to believe most of what is contained in it. 45 is a horrible human being. He's always been psychologically defective. No, I'm not a doctor, but we're back to 40 years of personal observation and public documentation, which doesn't lie.

Well-stated KK; thank you for sharing.

3

I just watched Colbert’s interview of Wolff. He said a couple of things that interested me. Early in the interview he said that the book is nothing more than an affirmation of reporting that has largely already been done. I agree. He also later said that many of the accounts had several sources that were very different in how the event played out and he just had to make personal judgement of how he would present it in the book. In other words there is a lot of room for honest speculation of how accurate it is but I felt he was candid about it. I’m about 40% through the book and a lot of it is just retelling of things we have already known while there are also a lot of things that are not. I’m 74 and I believe this is the first purely political book I have ever read but I wanted to read it because it is so controversial and make my own mind up about it and not listen to hearsay.

gearl Level 7 Jan 9, 2018
3

I share your concerns @ErikGunderson and ad another: how do you separate confirmation bias in accepting the claims Wolff makes form reality?

One only needs to read the responses below to see what I mean: if you already hate trump, you will likely believe everything in the book part and parcel, without any need to see corroborating evidence or due diligence on your own.

In particular, he makes claims such as " "100% of the people around him" believe Trump is unfit for office." When someone claims 100% of anything, that is a YUGE red flag for me in terms of that persons objectivity since it is highly unlikely that a) that is a real statistic and b) that he asked 100% of the people that question directly.

Also, he makes claims that "including Donald Trump, who reportedly did not want to win, and his wife. Donald Trump Jr. said his father "looked as if he had seen a ghost" when he realized he had won, and Melania Trump was "in tears – and not of joy."[10]" Reportedly? By whom? Who reported or said to him that he didn't want to win? And how does a person tell tears of joy from other tears?

From what little I can tell by the wikipedia entry, he is injecting A LOT of his subjective opinions about trumps action and, while that is perfectly fine, the problem is that the readers are viewing this as objective fact to confirm their bias against him, not just one man's reading of anothers actions, a reading which is liable, as erik says, to be filled with bias and perhaps even an agenda of its own... even if that agenda is knowing, for a fact, that his book will sell better for being "scandalous" than " reasonable"

Sounds like the author decided what people wanted to hear and just wrote it all down for them

I don't quite get why DJT would spend a lot of his own money on the campaign and be unwilling to win.

@McIntyre Ego

@BobFenner

But isn't there greater ego in winning than losing?

The theory goes, @McIntyre, that Trump wanted to build a persona for himself as "the guy who got robbed by Crooked Hillary" and go on to become a profitably populist extragovernmental agitator -- kind of what Sarah Palin became in the early 2010's, except on a much bigger scale, with his own TV network (captained by Bannon) to boost his ability to market the thing he knows how to market the best: himself.

@TheMiddleWay Not as far as I can see/register for extreme narcissists TMW. ANY exposure, attention is "winning" to them. Trump has stated that he really intended, in fact, still intends to parley the pres. run into a new reality TV show, even channel... Yes, he really is that megalomaniacal.

@BobFenner

By that logic, by winning he extends the exposure as clearly he has... so it doesn't make sense to think that he would have more exposure by losing.

And in regards to the reality show...Methinks you may be letting confirmation bias get in the way of actually seeking the truth in matters relating to trump

[snopes.com]

@TheMiddleWay I'll stand w/ my assessment of "there is no bad publicity" for egotists.
And the bias mention: I can't find right off the reporting of Trump's comments, but unless my memory is faulty (ha!) he mentioned as part of NOT winning the presidency, the likelihood of using the noise generated in the process for launching a reality show. NOT about the White House.

@BobFenner

There is no doubt that he would have spun a defeat into another way to feed his ego. But it makes not sense that he would have wanted to lose since he would have had less chances to feed his ego with a loss than a win.

I'd be curious if you could find any evidence that points to him saying he didn't want to win... not what he would do if he lost... but that he specifically didn't want to win.

@TheMiddleWay I put the string "trump stating that he didn't want to win presidential election" and there's a few listings...

@BobFenner

I put that same string in just now and none of the listings have him saying he didn't want to win the election. Plenty of reference to the Wolff book alleging he didn't; zero listings actually having him say that though.

@TheMiddleWay @TheMiddleWay Ahh, I do apologize. Not putting sufficient time into my delving, responses.
Some substantiation here: Writing for the website xojane.com, Stephanie Cegielski said that when she was brought aboard as communications director for the Make America Great Again PAC last summer, the instructions from Trump Tower were to make sure that Trump finished a respectable second in the GOP primary. It was made clear that Trump was running not as a serious contender, but as a “protest” candidate.

@BobFenner

Do you have independent confirmation that this is factual? I'm sorry to be so dogged about this but in todays news, we have so many people making so many claims about what someone did or did not say that unless there is a direct report or documentation to that effect, then I don't trust it.

For example, could that documentation have said that he finish AT LEAST a respectable second? Do we have anything after the primary to confirm that he didn't want to be president?

I hope you see what I'm getting at here: hearsay is not the same as facts and what Cegielski or Wolff claim is happeneing, lacking independent verification.

I did some more digging and it seems Cegielski is the only one claiming what she claims and she did so on the heals of quitting her job and the piece she wrote for xojane.com hasn't gotten any friction by any other people, not democrats and not republicans.

I'm sorry but there is just no reason to believe that trump didn't want to be president just because one former employee claims it on the heels of her quitting her job and hating on her boss.

@TheMiddleWay What would constitute "independent confirmation"? Fill this space w/ your intelligence.

@BobFenner

A few other people than Cegielski confirming that such a memo exists would be the least.

Actually seeing the memo would be the better.

A quote from trump as per my original request would be best.

@TheMiddleWay Call him up mate.

@BobFenner

Not my claim; not my burden of proof. 😉

@TheMiddleWay Nor mine. This isn't your Fox news...

@BobFenner

As long as we are in agreement that there is no factual, non-hearsay data validating that trump wanted to lose the presidency, then we are in agreement.

@TheMiddleWay No; I do not agree. But consider that we are on to a much more important topic than Trump this/that. A/the nature of the truth if you will. Plato's chair, Heisenberg... let's chat this up if we have time/interest.

@BobFenner

But we are specifically addressing the topic of truth: you consider it true that, without access to a memo or a direct quote, trump said what you claim he said. I do not believe it's true for many reasons, including the fact that he is president and hasn't resigned (which he would have done immediatly if he didn't want to be president), the fact that we both agree he is ego driven and his ego is better served by being president, and by the fact that both Wolff and Cieglski and unreliable witnesses, one by virtue of being an angry ex-employee and the other by virtue of having a monitary interest in telling people what they want to hear.

So this is very useful topic for it addresses the standard of proof by which you consider something true and the standard of proof by which I consider something true and further how bias affect that standard.

@BobFenner

"No; I do not agree."

In light of the above, even though there is no factual evidence that trump didn't want to win, no memo produced that said that and no quote from him saying that, you are willing to accept that premise merely because two people with identifiable bias claim that.

See, I'm not so accepting. Maybe it's the scientist in me, but it takes a lot more than hearsay to serve as proof to me.

@TheMiddleWay Umm; I taught chemistry, physics and life sciences... have a couple degrees as well. Let me ask you a simple, yet leading question Mid; how can you "tell" how much octane is in the gas you buy? Think about this.

@TheMiddleWay I consider only "degrees" of truth; relative to subjective elements in our perception, non-replicability of experiences... For alleged stmt.s here, it's my opinion that the people involved would not make outright falsehoods for the righteous possibility of libel, lawsuit. Re Trump acceding to the presidency... his chimerical personality (being kind here) is such that he's likely to change whatever he does to suit him at the moment. Note his pre-emptive cries of the election being rigged; then amazement at the win. Yes; it's obvious (to me, most all I'm familiar with) that he is imminently unsuited for the position, but... what can he do at this point? What would you do? You mention he would have resigned... there's no way that would occur. Do look up the term/condition "narcissism".

@BobFenner

That's all well and good but you claimed the president said something and there is no evidence he said it... except hearsay, rumor, gossip, supposition.

Thus, as I said in the beginning of the thread, when we start believing in gossip we invite confirmation bias to cloud our judgement since we can almost always find someone saying something that confirms our bias even if it's not true, you see?

@BobFenner

"Let me ask you a simple, yet leading question Mid; how can you "tell" how much octane is in the gas you buy? Think about this."

I don't have to think about this. I have a portable "octane number" analyzer in my car. I don't trust the pump to tell me the truth about the octane number; I verify it directly. 😀

@TheMiddleWay For what reasons do you consider the gauge accurate?

@TheMiddleWay Actually, re-read this thread. I didn't claim Drumpf had said something... But that others had indicated such. And again, I have high confidence (as in statistics) that this is likely so.... Please see here:
[washingtonpost.com]

In particular this bit: "The law allows him (goodness knows he threatens to sue it all the time) as a public figure to prevail in litigation if he can show either intentional falsity or reckless disregard of the truth.

@BobFenner

"For what reasons do you consider the gauge accurate? "

I understand near-infrared (NIR) transmission spectroscopy and have worked with NIR directly in physics laboratory settings.

[zeltex.com]

@BobFenner

"Actually, re-read this thread. I didn't claim Drumpf had said something.."

Good then: we are in agreement as neither one of us claim that trump said he wanted to lose the presidency.

@TheMiddleWay Are you sure this is the science by which the gauge works? Perhaps it's a VW product. My point (hopefully) is that we all rely on something other than directly understandable, first order input to register our reflections... the moving screens of our awareness. Finally, that it is up to each of us to "decide" (as in nothing is decided till it's done) what constitutes what is real. For me, I can easily accept that DonT did not want to be president... not just from the peoples' stmt.s to the effect, but by his observable/observed behavior, my understanding of what little I "feel I know" of humans. He's unfit and he does know it. He didn't want to win... and will not be surprised when he confirms this directly.

@BobFenner

My point has been from the first that it's hard to be objective about evidence when you already carry a bias for a person. This is why people that carry a bias against trump will believe everything negative about trump while people that carry a bias for trump will believe everything positive about trump.

But you are right; time will tell if he didn't want to be president or if he's the worst president ever or if science gets destroyed under his tenure or he's a sexual abuser or his whole staff hates him or the world blows up or any of the other claims made about him by people that have a hyperbolic bias against him.

@TheMiddleWay Oh, I strongly approve of being guarded re bias... or related term: prejudice, from the Latin pre judicia meaning to judge before. I consider myself as very close to excluding both... mainly on the basis of self-inspection and desire. Again, to/for me, it is obvious that Trump is incompetent... but equally obviously our system of elections yields such choices at times. Is it B. Franklin who is ascribed with "Democracy is the worst form of self-governance; except all the others" quote? Cheers.
Am wondering re the make/model of car w/ octane gauge. My vehicles barely have fuel volume!

@BobFenner

"Am wondering re the make/model of car w/ octane gauge"

The octane gauge is a stand alone component you can buy for yourself; it has nothing to do with car make or model.

@TheMiddleWay Ahh, have come across these hand helds. Star Trek stuff! In my day mass spec.s were room size!

2

It's a complete load of horse shit and part of Killery's master hatchet job plan. That bitch needs to go to jail, but the Deep State will keep her protected, along with Obama.

Don't think you're going to like the future much Zoid.

@SamMcGlone With the amount of reading/researching on this stuff that I've done (credible sources, not tin hat shit) I wish I was on drugs. Thank f**k I'm not American!

Who is this "Deep State" I keep hearing about? The civil servants in the Federal bureaucracy? The Illuminati? Very foggy on who this "they" is.

And Hillary Clinton has no "master plan." Her plan was to be elected President. That didn't work. She's done, out of the picture, as relevant now as Michael Dukakis was after he lost an election he should have won, too.

@ErikGunderson Look up some of the CIA/FBI whistle-blowers, they tell quite a bit. Kevin Shipp is a good start.

1

I am reading it also, it just fills the gaps in what we already knew. Obama had more class in his pinky fingernail than Trump and Miller put together.
I do have to give him credit for being though, he has managed to piss off the leaders of every country on the planet.

1

Whatever truth this may contain, it probably isn't anything enlightening to those who follow politics on a daily basis. I have my concerns about it turning out to be a smear job, which would only embolden him and his supporters, but at the same time it feels like it's at that point of no return where it doesn't matter what is said, they won't care.

Watching all these dreadful policy ideas, administrative exoduses, foreign blunders, and bad character on display, we honestly don't need a book to tell us how bad he is. He should be getting grilled day in and day out over his wretched policies to the point where every republican should be terrified of losing their seats. We all know he's an idiot, I just wish people in general focused less on how rude he is and more on how much damage he's doing in office.

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I imagine it to be like any other mafia family. They support the old Don to his face and speak the truth behind his back when they think no one is listening, but if they get caught talking crap they will lie to the end of time. The people are criminals, they want everything for themselves, and they are getting away with it so far. Every time he says "no collusion" he is just affirming that there is, anyone can see through that. He wants people to believe what he says and ask no more questions, since that how it works in his family. I think he's bat shit crazy and that it's nothing new. He's been crazy since I first seen him on TV in the 80's, he's beyond a narcissist, he believes his own lies.

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What bothers me about this book is a lot of the comments in it seem to be gossip. I'd love for it to be all accurate but I'm inclined to take it with a small 'pinch of salt'

That's how I'm taking it. A lot of gossip from a lot of right-of-center folks. "Borgia Family Reunion" is how I described it in the original post, and I stand by that. 😉

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Allowing for Wolff's personal beliefs creeping into his narrative, I believe we can all see and hear the TRUTH when we hear or see Trump speak. He is not only unfit, he's a pretender, exaggerator, liar, asshole, jerk who's ego can be blown over by a feather. I believe hi is absolutely insane, as I have had plenty of exposure to the insane. We must all believe what is right in front of us. Use common sense and trust your instincts to sort out what is logical. THE KING HAS NO CLOTHES.

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A fave stmt. from 5th c. BC Athens: "Good government demands the active, intelligent participation of every citizen" (every word counts; and yes, I'm aware this excluded women, slaves...).
My modern day corollary: "You can't have democracy among and ignorant, apathetic citizenry"

@michaelinlivonia Amarican?

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