Fair enough

@Jess2zz requires knowledge of character...

A bit of Common Sense goes a long way. Guess even Paine couldn't figure out how to get past the reality gap.

@Matias Agreed. One can champion reason while holding humanity in contempt, though I would proffer that to do so is unreasonable. But then, like Paine, I am more of an optimist. Thus while recognizing our flaws, I tend to agree with Steven Pinker that our species has evolved over the centuries, as with each generation more are listening to the better angels of our nature.

Money talks.

I'll watch msnbc, but sometimes I have to take long breaks from them. I can feel them trying to build a hysteria with panels and speculation. Maddow and Mathews do awonderful jobs giving real reasons to be hysterical without a 4 person panels to give "what ifs".

I think it's part of the answer.

@Jess2zz nice neck warmer in your picture. People seem to point fingers for everything. I just think people need to accept responsibility for the filtering they need to do by taking time out to check the facts. I like Bernie, but I have caught him embellishing. Once upon a time I would talk to people with different opinions and learn enough to rethink my position on issues. What I have found so frustrating is when what would normally be accepted as facts, are not. It is pointless to talk to the opposition if there is no respect for facts. Sorry, I have lost some friends this summer and your post touches on the problem I wish I could figure out.what to say.

@Omots he's the best neck warmer.
I'm sad to hear you have lost friends, I have too. This cycle had been hard on relationships. So I feel you.
Like you, I'm at a total loss on how to get back to a basis of what's real with those with different "knowledge" of what's happening.

I post this all the time. Keep it in the green!!

Great book with wonderful examples of manipulation and misinformation. I like it.

The phrase "breaking news" is the one most overused news hook that I really hate.

I know the feeling, I spent that entire election trying to convince people to care. Now, they do, and it's too late. Oh and they aren't voting in the midterms. Because they don't care THAT much....

There's nothing wrong with this land, but There's something wrong with the investment of how it's run by those who inhabit it. Less than half of eligible voters even bother with elections. Of that half (and that's generous), many are basing votes from fringe or far leaning points of views.
How many are voting not knowing what socialism actually is? Or that we have it on our system already? How many don't understand gun laws, or the how badly they are enforced? How deregulation pollutes their drinking water, but having regulations to broadly written can kill smaller businesses? It's that kind of balance, ability to play devil's advocate for themselves that's making an agreement of what's real soo damn difficult.
Sadly, that cognitive advantage means nothing without showing up and having a united front. Say what you want about trump or the reps(I'm sure we both have a lot to say), but they know how to unite when it counts.

@creative51 He should disturb everyone on some level. Pick an area: economics, environmental, social, legal, humanity...in at least one of those ways he should be disturbing.
Even some of his supporters don't like separating families at the boarder. Some others disliked the tariffs. (Of the ones I've spoken to).

Fair enough. How do you get the person you're speaking with take that research seriously and with genuine consideration?

@Jess2zz Well, as the old saying goes: you can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make it drink. The best you can do is to follow this yourself. Ideologues of all strips will always seek to confirm their worldview rather than take it apart and to be fair to them, it is a difficult thing to do: to take apart or challenge your worldview.

@Jess2zz they dont. I've tried after doing extensive research (I'm a librarian, I know how to research!). My conservative brother in law and his buddies still tell me I'm full of shit.

I think I get what you're trying to say, but your example is a bit off. You're taking about new information, once that Information was found, adjustments were made. The fact is, mercury worked as a filling, sadly it wasn't known how dangerous it is.
As far as the sky being blue, yeah, but color is subjective. The colorblind or just straight up blind, changes that kind of conversion. A persons inability to see it for themselves or their different perspective or comprehension, doesn't change what actually is. That's why we need to have sources we can trust (even with some skepticism). We Have to be speaking from the same reality to make real progress.

I disagree. Facts are facts regardless if you believe them. Facts do not change unless the circumstances that made them facts are in transition. Mercury was never good; humanity was mistaken. That causes things to be taken as fact that are not, but it didn’t keep mercury from making people mad as hatters. Science doesn’t care what you believe; it only changes its position to get more accurate as new information comes in. In those cases some old things that were taken as fact will be revealed to be not factual. That doesn’t mean they once were facts. They once were mistaken as facts.

I think I get what you're trying to say, but your example is a bit off. You're taking about new information, once that Information was found, adjustments were made. The fact is, mercury worked as a filling, sadly it wasn't known how dangerous it is.
As far as the sky being blue, yeah, but color is subjective. The colorblind or just straight up blind, changes that kind of conversion. A persons inability to see it for themselves or their different perspective or comprehension, doesn't change what actually is. That's why we need to have sources we can trust (even with some skepticism). We Have to be speaking from the same reality to make real progress.

Sad but true. I worry that having polar opposites who are existing in different realities (in their heads) are too loud, perpetuating exactly what you're talking about. I'd really like to see that end.

It's a great way, well thought out and supported. But from what I've observed and experienced, it is ignored at a concerning rate. I've watched debates where one person drops 20 sources of supporting data (gov't, news paper, interviews), and it just doesn't matter. The other person name calls and ignores that data just because they know it's wrong. I don't know how we fix that on a large scale. One person at a time is just too slow.

@Jess2zz I agree. name calling or raising your voice is a sure sign that they have no empirical evidence to bring to the table.

@TristanNuvo but man, it's a hell of a way to distract and take you off topic.

That's what I'm trying to figure out. How do we get past the "I have to believe" mentality? I've met a few that were willing to listen to my very much opposite of their views. Though happy and even lucky for that, it takes hours. The longest was 6 hours. And he called me 12 hours later to inform me he changed his mind on some things. 3 months later he told me he did some research and decided I was right. 6 hours of talking, 3 months of thinking on it, and it's the best outcome I've had.

@Jess2zz That's some powerful talking. It shouldn't be that hard though, right?

@thislife you would think it shouldn't be, but it is. I actually had one of those talks yesterday for about an hour. It was only that short because he had an appointment. On the flip side, it should be hard to change minds. If it was easy, then no one would stand for anything.
My problem is changing thoughts based in falsehoods or incomplete thinking or just plan ignorance, is incredibly difficult. That's what's troubling me.

@Jess2zz That makes sense. Logical thinking is so underrated.

@Jess2zz you should consider crafting this whole notion into a TED Talk. Seriously, it's a much more worthwhile topic than some I've seen.

@Condor5 thank you, That's a wonderful complement.
To be honest, I've always wanted to have a small public group to have discussions like this, in person. I never figured out how to start such a thing.

@Jess2zz I would encourage you, honestly, to consider doing a TED Talk on this; it is a very worthwhile topic. You are obviously very bright, and I do not doubt you could do it.

@Condor5 I'll look it up. Not sure how far I'll get but it's worth a try. Thank you.