KInda kicks the ego (pride) in the dirt.

Well yeah!

Options are manifestations of agency and circumstance. It doesn't mean you don't have the ability to make a choice when presented with an option. Choice and desire are seperate from agency. free will is choice. There's always a choice.

His first name is Free and he resides in your imagination

I have all the ingredients to bake bread. Any bread I want. What bread will I choose to bake? Easy answer, any kind I want. I don't have to bake bread either. I could make cake, pasta, candy and so on. Yes my having the ability affects weather or not I can bake, but I can. I can choose to bake, or not. That is because of my free will. I have no reason to bake ever. I can buy any bread I want, or not. I don't have the ability to will myself to be more naturally talented, or control the world around me and mine, but I can choose to do things. I would call that free will, regardless of how I arrived there. Not having free will would mean I can't decide anything ever, even given every option.

@jayneonacobb

Why do you choose to bake the bread you choose?

Because you like it. You like it because you've enjoyed it before, because it's 'something you do'. Your choice is an effect caused by your experience.

If you choose not to bake it, why did you choose not to? Because you are you - but why are you you? Because you, your personality, who you are is an affect of the your genetics and experiences. The choice you make has been 'caused' by the many things that make you who you are.

The alternative is that you do things without cause. 'Hang on,' you say, 'what if I toss a coin to randomly decide whether to bake bread or not?'

So ... why did you choose to toss that coin? Because your personality made that the option you sellected - cause and effect.

You cannot have free will if you have cause and effect. The two are logically incompatable.

A choice is still a choice. Refer to my thought experiment that I'll tag you in.

I understand your thesis. I agree that evolution and experience help dictate action. Ultimately a choice is still a choice. I've gone against my gut many times. My point is my will changes depending on my situation. I can change my mind, and often do. I find the idea of no free will to be tantamount to predestination. The majority can be wrong. Besides, this is a close poll.i could easily ask the same you. Abrahamic Religion believes in predestination despite its claim to the contrary. Maybe you didn't shed your beliefs.

@jayneonacobb Again, we used to believe in free will. Just as we shed our belief in god that was ingrained in us, so too did we shed the belief in free will that was ingrained in us. (Your belief that you changed your mind is all part of there illusion of free will.) Consequently, @Fanburger, that is why you would be the believer that is offering no proof, not us.

@Stevil In not saying it's the reason to believe, I'm asking if half a room of people who are likely above average in intelligence, logic, and reasoning rejected a belief that you still believed, would it give you pause. Maybe get you to investigate?

As for it being your illusion, I know some Christians, my mother included, who have made almost identical statements about their religious beliefs.

@Stevil Just like atheists don't require a group aspect, neither do people who realize free will is an illusion. I don't understand where this line of thinking is coming from.

I don’t believe in free will, but I also don’t think it matters much. In a world with no free will, one is victim to his/her limited experience, even if there is a tendency towards certain behavior, it would be impossible to know if that choice is really chosen, or decided for us based on what we experience, giving us the illusion of free will.

@Stevil The poll result isn't a reason to believe. It should be a reason to investigate. Those are not the same thing.

@Funandfondles Oh, I tagged you in this comment because I thought from your previous replies that you were one that does believe in free will. I think the reason it matters is that it softens opinions on others' stations in life when they realize it's all a consequence of things outside of their control.

@JeffMurray I think even people that say they believe in free will still understand that people make decisions based on what they know. I once described what having no free will is to a person who believed in free will, he said that I described free will exactly, people are this confused.

@Funandfondles You're describing Fanburger. He said 'checkmate' to me several times after I dismantled his arguments. He thinks I'm proving his points he's so confused.

I don't know if that made any sense or not.

Me too.

Saying you could have refrained from posting that is another way to say that you didn't.

Yes, by choice.

@jayneonacobb Not so much. You did what you did, and saying you could have done otherwise is meaningless.

@ jayneonacobb
And what was that choice based on? Your desires (will). The question is; were those desires naturally caused, or did you create them out of nothing for no reason (magic)?

@toakreon @tommymeador @JeffMurray Let's do a thought experiment. You have two dots. They occupy the same space, which do you choose? You only have one sentence containing one answer. Take as much time and space as you need to explain why you chose the answer you did.

@tommymeador there are six definitions of will. It is impossible to reconcile each one with all others. Context determines definition. There are six different contexts to consider. This renders the argument moot without a qualifier. For example: i have no choice that i am a human and subject am to the human condition. But I am capable of asserting my will in many instances. I[google.com]

@jayneonacobb I would choose by random.

Why? Through cause and effect. Because my brain, shaped through genetics and experience, would be caused to make that decision.

@toakreon that's not a legitimate answer to the question. Which dot do you choose, not how you would choose. Also, you can't choose at random because of ingrained biases, it's impossible.

@jayneonacobb I don't really understand the intent of the question, but with or without a discernable rationalization for why I chose one, my subconscious mind would pick one based on some inscrutable criteria, then spit out that answer to my conscious mind. Maybe you would label them A & B or 1 & 2 and my subconscious mind would pick between those for some reason. Maybe if you didn't offer any distinguishing characteristics I'd just point (at both because they occupy the same space) and sarcastically say, "That one." Or maybe I wouldn't answer at all citing what a ridiculous proposition it was to pick between two things that are in essence actually only one thing. So what exactly does this thought experiment accomplish?

@jayneonacobb I cannot tell you which dot I would choose, because I wouldn't know whether the coin I flipped would come down head or tail - but my decision to flip that coun would be made on the basis of the way my mind works, and that is a result of causes.

@JeffMurray You just explained why free will exists. Even though it may not matter if you call either option by either name, it must be named in the context of the question. You must choose a name. The result doesn't matter. You exercise your will over the naming of the dots. You decided the terms by which you identified them. You have countless other options, but you picked binaries of each other to prove your point. Unfortunately for your argument it's not a coin toss proposition.

This is an apologist argument masquerading as logic. It's the same as saying the universe exists, therefore God did it. I didn't want to be blunt, but it has to be said.

@jayneonacobb --- The question is; Does something cause you to will one thing rather than another? If something causes it, it isn't free. Whether you can assert your will, isn't in question.

@jayneonacobb
Seemingly, you missed the entirety of my reply. First of all, I didn't say I would name them I said maybe you would name them. Regardless, even if it was me who named them that would be totally based on my subconscious mind making the decision to name them, of which I had no control. Secondly, you also missed the part where I said maybe I wouldn't choose one at all because of how dumb I thought the exercise was (like if you refused to distinguish them). Finally, the whole point of my reply was to state that I would have no idea how I would respond and that it would be completely outside of my control.

Your will can be changed at will, regardless of outside influences. Easy as that. The no free will argument is fate disguised as science.

@jayneonacobb Nothing wrong with the definition of fate that doesn't include the supernatural (the verb) as in things are destined to happen in a particular way... via cause and effect. Regardless, there is science to back it up. What doesn't have science to back it up? The idea of free will.

You're just arguing for divinity by skewing data.

@jayneonacobb In no way is my argument claiming necessity of a divine power.

I understand you think that, but the fact of the matter is you are arguing for a higher power. The no free will argument is exactly what I said it was in my OP. It's nature vs nurture. It's both. Chain of causality and conscious thoughts. The dot experiment illustrates that if you actually take the time to run it.

No one is claiming it's supernatural. Actually, it's exactly natural.

@JeffMurray that's okay, I don't believe such a natural force exists either.

@Dwight Do you believe ants and/or dogs have free will?

@JeffMurray absolutely, I owned a dog that was the epitome of free will. Loved it anyway. Free will doesn't mean that you don't respond to pheromones as ants do to maintain their collective swarms.

@Dwight So you do believe such a natural force exists, you're just still under the illusion you consciously control it.

@JeffMurray not sure where your going with that. Pheromones are weak influences and not always present or influential in our decisions.

@Dwight That's because that's not [the limit of] what I'm talking about. All sensory input and history of our human experience coupled with our biochemistry completely shapes everything you do and think.

@JeffMurray you are describing the basic biological triangle of heredity, physiology and environment. These are factors but not forces of control. The human mind can and does break free as well the occasional stray cosmic ray altering a gene or two. We may be duped into a false belief that we are in control, but for all practical purposes, if it feels free it is free.

@dwight I agree with you. Just because we exist as we do does not mean we don't have the ability to choose. If anything we are uniquely capable of choice. That's why we have opinions based on the same data. Atheism and religion is the ultimate choice in this context. You can choose to believe, or not, regardless of the evidence. That's why religion exists. It's a series of choices. For example I may have the will to be the undisputed ruler of the universe, but I don't have the choice. That's the difference. My will is free. My agency is bound by reality.

@Dwight --- Are you saying that you believe because you feel it in your heart? We have free will in the legal sense, which is just freedom of action. But the philosophical concept of free will would be, uncaused desire created by you, out of nothing, for no reason. In other words Magic.

@Dwight Guess what, those cosmic rays and what/how much they alter you are also not your choice. None of it is.

Then you claim that even if we're not free, feeling free means we're free. You are essentially describing 'The Matrix'. Were the bodies in the pods free because the brains were told they were free?

@JeffMurray You obviously feel free to believe what you say is true. That could be free will.

@TommyMeador Never heard it put that way. Interesting concept but you lost me at magic. Magic is not real.

@JeffMurray You mentioned the Matrix. How did that come to be written? Free will or cosmic forces driving the pen and the plot? When an astonomer finds a galaxy, how does that happen unless the observer makes a conscious decision to search for it? I would suggest free will is involved.

@Dwight "You obviously feel free to believe what you say is true. That could be free will."

This couldn't be more inaccurate. When I was reading about free will, I literally said, aloud, to myself, "This is such bullshit." I actively did not want to believe I didn't have free will. The evidence was beyond that which I could reject and I became a nonbeliever in free will against all desire. That, in itself, was even further proof of the concept. I was forced to believe without any choice in the matter. Why, do you think you can choose to believe anything you want?

@JeffMurray so what wrote the matrix, the author as named or unnameable forces beyond the author's control?

@Dwight Ideas just enter the consciousness from the subconscious without any agency. Do you believe you can choose the next thought that comes into your head? If so, why didn't the author choose to think of the idea for The Matrix earlier when it would have been even more futuristic and influential? Hell, for that matter, why didn't you think of the idea for it first and become a millionaire? So you missed the boat on that one, but why don't you just choose to think up the next million dollar idea?

But just because there isn't free will doesn't mean the forces are "cosmic" or beyond our understanding. That is the line of thinking of the religious. How did life start? We don't know so it must have been that god did it. What causes the tides? Must be god. It's all cause and effect, nothing supernatural.

Why did an astronomer search for a galaxy? Because that's his job. Why is it his job? Because that field interested him? Why? Because he had mentors that introduced it to him in a positive way. If you ask why enough, sooner or later you will arrive at something outside of that person's control.

@JeffMurray So, identifying the drivers precludes a choice to accept or reject the imposing force?

@Dwight Identifying the drivers has nothing to do with it. The choice is made in your subconscious regardless, and you may be able to venture guesses as to why that was the decision that was made, but even if you can that doesn't mean those were actually the factors that carried all or even most of the weight.

@JeffMurray stay tuned. I have to think about this but that 3 micro second delay between sensory awareness and consciousness is getting in my way. This is a problem with this media, A book length discussion carried out in tiny word sequences is messy. Thanks for persisting, there is much to think about here.

@Dwight --- Magic is not real. Exactly my point.

Isn't that the exact same thing religious people do?

@JeffMurray yes hahahahahaha

@JeffMurray I can admit when I'm being irrational and i will talk up free will all day when I'm being awesome but when I eat the whole box of Mac and cheese I am so blaming the lack of free will DNA blah blah blah not able to control are cravings lol

@Pooska You kill me. So how did you vote then?

@JeffMurray I cheated and didn't vote hahaha! Damn atheists with no morals not following the rules!!

@Pooska You undecided?

@JeffMurray I honestly don't know if we have free will or not. Maybe a little bit of both. I'm not sure how we could ever find out one way or the other

@Pooska The only think I can't understand is partially having free will. Discounted will?

@JeffMurray I asked Jesus and he said it didn't matter lol

So where do you stand?

@JeffMurray I know the first one is true but since I don't like what I am creating (since it allegedly works on subconscious ideas, not just conscious ones), I would LOVE to go back to believing I'm a victim, or to being passive and letting "God" do His will. Every time I complain to my daughter about something, she annoys me by asking why I wanted that to happen, since we choose things that have some benefit for us, even we're in denial about it.
She's right, but playing victim is easier, and more fun, than self-reflection.

@birdingnut I don't believe any of those 3. You can try that...

@JeffMurray I don't care what others believe, as long as they let me do the same.

@birdingnut Unfortunately, I disagree with that as well. There are some things people believe that we should collectively admonish them for in an effort to eradicate them. Your beliefs on free will do not fall into that category, but sadly, some beliefs do.

@JeffMurray LOL! Here's the deal..you believe whatever you want and I'll do the same.

@birdingnut Don't need to make a deal about that because we can't choose what to believe. ;-P

A. Why do you distinguish between the things done to the brain by mental illness and things done to the brain by other influencing forces?
B. None of us that realize free will is illusory think that there is any kind of higher power that dictates thoughts, beliefs, or actions either.

@JeffMurray What kind of other influencing forces are you referring to?
And please expand on what you said regarding "us that realize free will is illusory..."?

@Lincoln16

A. Chemical imbalances, deformities, injuries, tumors, and the entirety of each person's human experiences (e.g. someone who got beat as a child, someone who was spoiled, etc.) Pretty much anything that can affect the machine or the input to the machine.

B. As it stands there are 22 people here who have come to realize that free will is an illusion. It seemed as though you claimed that we'd need to believe in a higher power as a result. I was simply stating that was inaccurate.

Elaborate please.

@Ac08 ---- And what is that choice based on? Your desires (will). The question is; were those desires naturally caused, or did you create them out of nothing for no reason (magic)?

@TommyMeador all decisions are based on 3 things, Self preservation (self explanitory), Feelings (whether you feel enough about something else to consider it or even care more about than yourself) and more (more of whatever it is you crave, money, sex, the joy of helping people or even facebook likes (Shudder)).

@TommyMeador oh also the main important thing is the power of now, it's what it's all about, it's how you feel at that very moment and considering what ever you think about at the time, it makes no difference how you felt in the past if you feel different now then you will make a different choice.

Of course you will. But what causes that feeling? Did you create it out of nothing for no reason? If the will is free it has no causes.

They don't though. There are a lot of ramifications to thinking someone who did X could have done something else.

@Funandfondles --- Free will is an illusion. This position affords me a great advantage in my daily life. I can look at myself and others without blame, hate or anger. Without these destructive tendencies, I can deal with the failings of myself and others with compassion and rationality.

@TommyMeador if a man goes to jail, and let’s say there is free will, we need to teach him not to do what landed him there. If a man goes to jail, and there is no free will (victims to our limited experience), then we need to teach the man not to do what landed him there. Even though I believe there is no free will, I fail to see the effective difference.

It is my contention that a man who doesn't believe in free will, and really understands all that it implies, is less likely to wind up in jail.

@Funandfondles Do you think there would be a difference in how we treat said prisoner if we all recognized free will was an illusion? If you or a loved one was the prisoner for whom the severity and cruelty of sentence were being contemplated, would it make a difference then?

@JeffMurray I don’t really think anyone truly believes in free will, no one would expect a bum to know his table etiquette, people realize that we can only act in a way we have experienced.

@Funandfondles More than half the people here and in my experience well over 90% of the general population think they do. Anyone you've ever heard utter that awful phrase "pull yourself up by your own bootstraps" is part of that group, too.

@JeffMurray let’s hope those people can at least understand that we all have different experiences that make us act the way we do, I guess many do not, but wishful thinking. I’ll admit to trying to live as if I have free will, I’ll still try to do my best, but I know it because Iv been influenced by somthing else, so I try to influence others positively.

@Funandfondles That's about the best takeaway you can have I think. I always hope everything I learn and experience makes me a better person.

Who is They and what are you talking about?

@TommyMeador Dude, I never know what he's talking about. Not sure he even knows.

Computers can't produce random numbers either.