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What chaps my ass the most about this whole abortion question is whether it's thru the state or federal law, why do white men (mostly) have the right to make laws to control a woman's body? Why don't we have laws that control male bodies? Why should there be any law to control what a woman decides to do with her body regarding abortion or birth control? All these authoritarian men need to be told to get their noses out of other people's business and stop passing laws that are ALL about religious bullshit. As a rape survivor at 16, and one who did have an abortion due to that rape, I am to the point of outrage about this crap.

@Redheadedgammy I guess you missed all the women who won elected office this last election. You probably also get that the government, under it's police powers, gets to make laws. Since there are more women than men apparently women aren't voting the way you want them to. Sounds like you may only want the laws you want which is difficult in society. Our Supreme Court also ruled once that idiots could be sterilized. Maybe you also don't consider it's also the man's kid but I'm sure that doesn't count. Anyway, it might surprise you that religious WOMEN don't approve of abortion so maybe it's not just the fault of all men. Now that there are more women in the legislatures maybe your wish will come true but i'm guessing you don't want anyone telling you how to raise your kids and how to discipline them either. Opioids should be allowed to run rampant because people should be allowed to put whatever they want in their bodies right? Perhaps you can see why laws exist. The bottom line is that if it's left to the States, you live in a State that has the laws you like.

@lerlo I didn't miss anything about the recent election. You didn't answer my questions. You just decided to express your snark. Please don't bother to respond to me again.

@Redheadedgammy Sadly you don't get to make the rules here despite being female--I answered all your questions and merely pointed out that despite what it seems, white men don't make all the laws and the government gets to make all laws about everyone's body and what people can and can't do unfortunately. Like many here, anything not in agreement must be "snark," I stopped expecting more from this site a while ago.

@Gurahl there are exceptions to every rule. I agree with some of what you say and disagree with some. I don't or didn't mean to suggest it us a simple solution. Universal health care would answer many problems associated with having or not having children. I am a firm believer that there are never any simple solutions for complex problems. All I really want to do is to point out the inequality in women's health care and the irresponsibility of many men. Those are two things I believe we could agree upon. One only need look at the statistics of the amount of past due child arrears. And yes, some of that is a ridiculous system. I have seen men locked up when laid off work for failure to pay; in one case, I know the fellow was trying his best to find work and make his payments. So, yes, it is a very flawed system.

@Gurahl I agree. I think that if a couple uses birth control and ends up pregnant and a man wants an abortion and the woman refuses, he should be able to legally be relieved of all support. It don't think it's really in the same category as being forced to endure pregnancy and give birth, but still, it's not fair to a man who was trying to be responsible and does not want to have a child to force him to. He should be able to be absolved of all parental rights and responsibilities if he chooses, just like a woman should be able to get an abortion if she chooses. The only way for this to work though is comprehensive sex ed all through school and readily available birth control.

@Gurahl what about women not being educated? You seem to be placing all the blame on them

@Elganned he's saying there are idiots out there who think this is true and repeat it as an excuse against abortion. Because women are sluts or something ?

@Elganned “Extremes to the right and to the left of any political dispute are always wrong.”
― Dwight D. Eisenhower

@Renickulous , And I keep hearing we are a Republican nation. I'm not falling for that either.

Pregnancy already is to most fathers who are forced into financial servitude for the next 18 years with no say in the matter.

@Elganned I bet you don't want to let the father who "had a say" in making the baby have his kid if she decides she doesn't want it. Not very fair is it?

@Elganned And the mother had a say in making the baby. Kinda hypocritical to use this "they knew what they were doing" argument against the men when you want child support, but don't use it on women when the focus is the abortion argument, even if the father wants the kid.

@Elganned so it's just her kid after conception, got it.

@Elganned yes only YOU get to whine and nature says men have no right to children. Silly me

@Elganned My point, for the second time is it's hypocritical to allow the women to have all the decision on the child's death while the father has none, but then if mom wants the kid again, the father has no choice on the decision to financially support. And no, if the father doesn't want the kid, doesn't want to be a part of it's life...then why should he financially obligated? It's all the woman's choice, yet all the man's responsibility. We all know why there are child support laws saddling the father with the support - it has nothing more to do with pandering to women's desire to have choices but not be solely saddled with the responsibility and the government isn't willing to be the one that foots the bill. Even in the USA, the whole premise of our government is no taxation without representation - yet men have no representation on the life or death choices the mother gets to make alone, but have to pay a 'sex tax' for the next 18 years.

And as far as being her body - you can't commit assisted suicide if your terminal in most states, you can't buy and drink milk from a local farm without government oversight and regulations, you can't even grow and smoke a weed without the possibility of a felony conviction on your record...so it's pretty obvious the whole "her body" argument is financially driven by the government, and not by some belief the the freedom and sanctity of one's on body. Again - H Y P O C R I S Y - I literally just spelled out my point.

@Elganned and taking your whining rant to its logical conclusion, she can be on heroin, on cocaine and make the baby a crack addict at Birth or smoke and do whatever she wants with her body while she's pregnant and the kid and it's father be damned right? Because nature said so right?

@Elganned Here's a solution to the issue. Below is a truth table that lays out every possible scenario about wanting to birth the child. The T/F indicated if the parent want's to have the child. In every case, the woman still has the final say in the actual birth process, so nothing changes as far as her body/her decision:

I. Mother ( T ) Father ( T ) - both parents want the child, and support it emotionally and financially.

II. Mother ( F ) Father ( F ) - neither parent wants the child, it is aborted or put up for adoption after birth if the mother doesn't want to abort.

III. Mother ( F ) Father ( T ) - father wants the child, but mother's body/mother's decision, so the child is aborted. Sucks for father, but life isn't fair.

IV. Mother ( T ) Father ( F ) - mother wants the child, but father doesn't want the responsibility. Now the mother has a few choices:

(1) continue with the pregnancy, but give the child up for adoption, if she doesn't feel she can support on her own but is against abortion. The child has a good chance to be brought up in a stable, loving home - much better than no life at all some would argue.

(2) have the child b/c mother has made the decision she can support the child on her own. In this case, the mother gets to make the decision and is not forcing the outcome of her decision on someone else., nor is the child forced into a relationship with the emotional pain of a parent who doesn't love it.

(3) she wants the child but has an abortion b/c she doesn't feel she can put up for adoption and also doesn't feel after birth she can support. Sucks to be in this position, but perhaps next time she has sex, she will ensure she is on the pill, uses a condom,. and incorporates spermicide. To paraphrase you, "And if momma wants the kid, she should make sure she's fucking a man that does, too." Again, life isn't fair, but out of all the possibilities, this is the ONE AND ONLY case where she has to deal with not getting things all her way (like an adult).

In every case above the woman has the final say in the matter, just in one specific instance we are not forcing a man to flip the bill for the woman's choice - and she still has 3 options to chose from in this scenario. If you disagree this is not a more equal and balanced solution, while still honoring a woman's body, please explain. I would like to know how a person being responsible for their choices and not expecting someone else to be responsible for their choices is wrong.

@Elganned you agreeing that mom can do as she pleases despite the ramifications to the kud while pregnant speaks volumes about you.

@Elganned you know the use of heroin and cocaine is illegal right? The use of such drugs while pregnant can constitute child abuse? Damn white men making laws again. How dare they tell us we can't abuse our bodies

@Elganned you're the sanest person I know. We should have no laws because people will just break them. Why didn't we think of that?!?! You're a genius.

@Elganned my last comment because you don't get it ...we haven't stopped our war on theft either and we don't stop it. People still steal things and we have items on clothing and metal detectors and what do you know, people still steal things, So yes we should have no laws, people should be able to do whatever they want to make you happy,have a nice life

@Elganned And how in my proposed modified solution is the man forcing the woman to have an abortion? I believe I made it perfectly clear that "In every case above the woman has the final say in the matter (abort or not)". So again, I ask, "If you disagree this is not a more equal and balanced solution, while still honoring a woman's body, please explain." - this time please answer the question directly without trying to deflect on some "suspected" tangent. Thank you.

And of course they didn't, and never will. They don't want to do away with a good wedge issue when it's time for elections.....

I so agree! I've been bringing it up as well and telling anti abortion people that we can work together to get rid of abortion by EDUCATING people and making birth control readily available. No one wants abortion, but it shouldn't be taken away.

Well, the religious morons believe that birth control is also an abortion. I've heard that stupid excuse from the idiots. They also think birth control allows a woman to "whore around" without consequences so of course they have to do away with that, because they believe it is their right to tell women what they can and cannot do with their own bodies.

@Redheadedgammy Exactly and this is a very easy thing to dispute. Many people who are uncomfortable with abortion still don't want to go back to the time when women had kids for there entire fertile lives or were nuns. Almost no one wants that. I know alot of regular people who say they are against abortion. I don't think many are anti birth control radicals.

@MsAl Thank goodness there are not that many who work toward ridding the world of birth control. It is the extreme religious folks that work to get their representatives to write laws to do their bidding. I can live with others who don't agree with abortion. I can't agree with those who try to outlaw birth control.

I've always said that if men could get pregnant, there would be abortion clinics on every corner. It wouldn't even be a topic of discussion.