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This one is for all the pro-life people on here.

I have been pregnant 3 times. Each time I CHOSE to continue the pregnancy and accept the consequences. Two of my pregnancies resulted in healthy children. One ended because the fetus died.

Pregnancy,childbirth and child rearing come with an immense amount of risk and responsibility. The maternal mortality rate in the US is far higher than it has any right to be and climbing steadily. Furthermore there are numerous long term conditions associated with and resulting from pregnancy. Mental health issues, diabetes that can become permanent, injuries in childbirth and in my case the onset of autoimmune diseases.

Once you are a parent there are a whole new set of concerns. Can you work or otherwise support your family or must you be dependent on your spouse or family?What if something happens to them or they decide it's too heavy a burden?

If you do work,how do you balance caring for your child and doing your job effectively? We constantly see deeper and deeper incursions into the lives and rights of workers. What happens when your company decides that overtime or late hours are now mandatory?

Then there are opportunity costs. I have heard MANY administrators say things like " she has children,can she really handle the extra responsibility?" Strangely I have never heard this said of a man with children.

On top of all of this are the needs of that child. Can you make time for dr.s appointments and play dates and one on one time and enrichment classes and school plays and bake sales? Parenting is neverending and it is exhausting and no matter how hard you try you'll ALWAYS know you could have done it better.

No one should become a parent without understanding and enthusiastically accepting all of the risks and responsibilities that come with the title. No one should ever be FORCED to take all of that on. Particularly not to satisfy the beliefs and biases of those who do not understand the gravity of what they're demanding.

OpposingOpposum 9 Feb 24

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17

Call people what they are - pro-birth, not pro-life. I am a staunch supporter of a woman's right to choose, but I consider myself very much pro-life. That's because I advocate for policies that support children and parents throughout life, not just during pregnancy.

I couldn't personally have an abortion. The first time I was pregnant, it was a huge shock - I'd be told that I was infertile - but I never once considered termination. I was married (and there was only the one candidate for fatherhood), I had good health insurance, we had a stable home, and he was excited about being a father.

The other five times I got pregnant, I desperately wanted a baby and was again in a good, stable relationship and so on. Unfortunately, I miscarried all five times.

I would never presume to dictate another woman's choices. It's incredibly arrogant for anyone to try doing that. Until I see the pro-birthers adopting all the children who are already here and in foster care, I will continue to view them with derision.

The fact that they are so staunchly against having a social safety net for people,particularly single parents,tells me they are NOT pro-life.

Absolutely!

They are "Pro forcing woman to live by their misogynistic cherry picked interpretation of the Old Testament." Nothing pro life about it, their campaign has caused countless abortions and health problems for women world wide by depriving women of health care and reproductive roghts.

""""I would never presume to dictate another woman's choices. It's incredibly arrogant for anyone to try doing that. Until I see the pro-birthers adopting all the children who are already here and in foster care, I will continue to view them with derision.""""

I quoted the above because is the biggest true around. The so known as "pro-life" talk endlessly about the right to life but as soon as the kid is born they wash their hands.

Tampon terrorists seek to force all women to stay pregnant with their insane incompetent religious lies. ....they are NOT "pro" anything. ...women must always be free to choose. ...life begins with a willing healthy mom not ovulation nor insemination. ...I am glad you chose according to your values. ....sorry for your lost little ones. ...my sister had 4 children & 4 spontaneous abortions. ....not her fault she's not a perfect baby machine according to the Vatican

14

I agree fully. One pregnancy, one child but I seriously considered alternatives 38 years ago when I realized I was pregnant. Finally decided to go through with it even though I had lost confidence that my ex would be either helpful or even present. As it turned out I did raise my child alone and it was not easy. No one should have the decision on whether to continue a pregnancy made FOR THEM! It is a matter that belongs solely between a woman and her doctor and IF the man is part of the picture it is possible the woman will seek his input.
On a related subject, if those "pro-life" people, the same ones who have NO concern for children going hungry in America or being shot to death or people who are homeless, etc., are REALLY concerned about abortions taking place, then they should be lobbying for ACCESS TO AFFORDABLE (FREE) BIRTH CONTROL TO EVERY WOMAN WHO WANTS/NEEDS IT!
If you want fewer abortions, it is a statistical FACT that when women are given access to birth control the rate of abortion GOES DOWN!
You have to be a really special kind of stupid to think that women will "just be too lazy/irresponsible/careless to use birth control because they can always get an abortion".
OH, RIGHT because taking a pill (having an IUD, etc.) is soooo much more inconvenient than an abortion! (a medical procedure which, if you just learn what it entails for the woman, you would know it IS NOT the birth control method of choice)

Well said and so true. The effects of my "elective abortion" were much worse than delivering my two living sons. Side note, I was stunned to see that term on my medical record knowing the fetus had already died and my doctor ordered me to have the procedure as she was concerned about sepsis. People see the term "elective abortion" and make all sorts of assumptions. It's medical term that covers all sorts of contingencies not a phrase meaning"I just want to kill this fetus".

12

Facts and logic are wasted on people who want to base social policy on ideology or religion. 😟

A lot of pro lifers think the way they do because they feel the fetus is a person.

What they do not take into consideration is that the woman is also a person with her own rights and autonomy.

It may be futile but I would hope to make them see that their ideas trample all over the rights of women in the name of morality.

We have already decided,through our laws that no one can be forced to give up their bodily autonomy even to save others lives. You cannot compel even a corpse to give up their organs,no matter how many people it may save.

Why then would you argue that a woman must give up her bodily autonomy for one potential life?

Either some lives are worth more than others or women have less rights than corpses. Both of these positions are contrary to everything America and the concept of human rights are meant to stand for.

@Blindbird You are quite eligant in your statements. Far more clear than I. Thanks.

11

All pro-life advocates should realize that to choose a pro0life stance for their own lives is find' but when they attempt to force all people to act in accordance with their beliefs they are acting in a totalitarian manner that, in itself, is reprehensible.

Consider the following however:

We attempt to force people in a manner according to our beliefs about non-fetal murder being bad and that is not generally considered totalitarian nor reprehensible.

Likewise, if the nature of a person's pro-life stance is the belief that "abortion is murder", it is not totalitarian nor reprehensible for them to attempt to force all people to act in accordance to that belief

@TheMiddleWay Is is always improper for a person who holds an opinion not accepted by the vast majority to try to force their minority opinion on others.

@wordywalt

Do you think that from 2008 to 2015 it's been improper for the pro-choice group to force their "minority" opinions on others?

"Half of Americans consider themselves "pro-choice" on abortion, surpassing the 44% who identify as "pro-life." This is the first time since 2008 that the pro-choice position has had a statistically significant lead in Americans' abortion views."

Personally, as they lists their margin of error at +/- 4%, my view is there is no vast majority on this issue and thus if a person believes that abortion is murder, then it is not improper for them try and prevent others from committing what is to them murder

"[news.gallup.com];

@TheMiddleWay You have no factual proof that a fetus is a person.

@TheMiddleWay That is a typo. It should have ben a question, and should have read "Is it . . ."

@StuckInTheMidd a fetus is not a living being. It is a potential living being. It relies entirely on the mothers body until delivery. It is not capable of growing ,developing or even existing on its own. It is not a separate being.

@wordywalt
Like opposing said, I recognize that it has the potential for fully self realized human life since conception. Unlike opposing said however, I draw a different conclusion from that fact... I also recognize that after delivery it is still entirely dependent on the mothers body for milk, protection, and growth and unlike her, I don't see that dependence as having anything to do with being a separate being. We all depend on each other even in adulthood; that doesn't diminish our being separate beings.

And as relates to this thread, my stance is that if people think that it's alive at conception, it is proper for them to lobby for it not to be killed as there is no scientific nor cultural concensus as to when life begings and thus conception is as good a place for it to start as any.

10

I despise the term pro-life. They don't give a damn about children or mothers, for that matter. All they care about is the lies they've been told about late term abortion and women who use abortion as another form of birth control.

JimG Level 8 Feb 25, 2018

That side of the argument should be called Pro-Birth, because after that they lose interest.

Man is that ever true, I am pro life and they are pro producing "Forced Birth Babies" and then cutting off government funding to help the Forced birth children. Sick is the term for the so called pro lifers, They care not about children, I and my sister, have adopted three kids and this is an expensive road to take, She and husband have two daughters. I see the pro lifers yelling at clinics and yet not donating a freaking penny to the poor woman they are forcing to birth a child

9

It was only a couple weeks ago that I realised that I may have had a chemically induced abortion after I was raped a decade ago. The police took me to the emergency room, where they did the rape kit (probably still waiting to be processed in some lab somewhere), and gave me emergency contraception. I had a heavier than normal period after that, but whether that was due to the medication or not, I don't know. I hadn't thought about it in years, and certainly never lost any sleep over it. Where I live, WV, is one of the states that grants rapists visitation rights over children born of rape, and that would have been far worse than having an abortion.

Ori89 Level 4 Feb 25, 2018

Sincerely, My heart aches for you and all women with similar life events.

8

When I say no one should be forced to parent,I mean men or women. In an ideal world women would automatically have the support they need to raise their children and men would not be forced into parenthood either.

Plenty of men choose not to parent their child, though they find themselves responsible for child support. Let's be real here though.

Men have the option to pay and forget about the rest. Men are not putting their lives and health on the line just to bring a pregnancy to term. Men are not penalized at work for having a family.

7

Ideally, I agree, no one "should", but it seems the majority do procreate without forethought, planning, understanding, financial means, stable homes, or even long term partners !

That "be fruitful and multiply" line is taken way too literally.

Furthermore you can have all of that and lose it all very quickly.

7

This time last year, my exgf and I were caring for my cousin's newborn baby girl. She was born at the end of January. In withdrawl and addicted to methadone she was.. taxing to say the least. But, it wasn't her fault. My cousin had her two boys taken from her and placed with her sister the previous year. She was in no way capable of raising them. Let alone, a newborn on top of it! But, that doesn't make her unworthy. She fought hard to get her life back to sustainable. This past Month she was reunited with all three. She is a testament to the indomitable will of us humans. When given opportunity and motivation to overcome odds. We can choose to triumph.

It was ultimately the undoing of my nearly 8 year relationship. But, I don't regret it one bit. Both my exgf and I have children of our own, non together. And they are much older. Going back to caring for a newborn was something we never wanted. Hell, I made it medically impossible for me to have more. But, we decided it was best for both of them.

Do i think that my cousin should have kept her pregnancy? No, but once a child is born there is no other choice. We MUST care for them in all ways. My choosing not to have more was an easy decision. I know what I am capable of. There was no way I could provide for my family and add to it. That was proven in my fostering of that beautiful little copper top, blue eyed girl. I miss her everyday. And I don't waste time and energy judging my cousin for her choice.

You're right. Women do bare the brunt of responsibility for our children, and it's sad. But, some of us guys recognize that, and do what we can. We're just more quiet and humble about it.

That was a wonderful and selfless thing you did. I am well aware that many men are responsible,caring thoughtful and supportive. I'm lucky enough to know and love a handful of them. I am happy to hear that your relative overcame her addiction that is amazing and admirable.all the best to you all.

@Blindbird I appreciate the kind words. I wish there was nothing to admire, and it was normal for everyone to help in matters like these. She is doing well, right now. I just alway fear for a relapse. But, so far so good.

6

The most important thing is that YOU had a CHOICE and you made that choice for yourself.

That is exactly my point. I had a choice and everyone should be free to make that choice for themselves.

5

Fuck any religious terrorist who would force any woman to stay pregnant and repeal rapist visitation rights in 8 states

Rapist visitation rights? Does that exist? You can't be serious!

@GoldenDoll 9 states guarantee any rapist visitation rights including visiting the felon in prison to chat with "daddy" .....victim's must petition a court to terminate such parental rights. ...the forced pregnancy legislatures will go to insane lengths to prop up patriarchal theocracy minimizing if not eliminating women's rights

@GreenAtheist That's incredibly shocking. I'm so sorry men are creating these laws.

@GoldenDoll too many females vote criminal Rethuglican theocratics. ....the Governor of Iowa is such a traitor to Feminism

4

I found out the hard way that the pill does not work for me, and gave two children up for adoption because I do not believe in abortion (Both times the doctor blamed me and not the pill. I have used another form of birth control since then).

The first pregnancy was in a different city from where I grew up so no one knew I was pregnant. The second pregnancy was in my home town. I can't tell you how many of my "friends" told me that I should keep the child and go on welfare "like the blacks do"

groans

I already was raising one child by myself and could not even fathom raising another one alone. Thinking long term, I could not see myself ever getting out of poverty and elected adoption.

Fast forward to now...... I have talked to both my children online and met one in person before she was killed in a car accident. At this moment I have a good relationship with my grand-daughter and am hoping to meet her soon.

To have kids or not to have kids is a very personal decision that the government has no business getting in the middle of. I do feel that there should be some type of parenting class required of all high school students because I believe most young people have no idea of what they are getting into. The just see the cute cuddly child who smiles all the time and ignore the crying colicky kid from hell that they might have instead. When you're a parent you can't just say I've had enough and turn the kid off.

Basically our society does not respect life. Having a child should be something that is supported by the society and there should be a means to care for that child given birth. We are failing to invest in our future. This is not a good thing. In this society there has to be a way to provide for the future and since this is now put on the individual (going on welfare is not really an answer as it is not enough) they should be able to do whatever they want and have the procedure paid for. I do not mean to state anything against you personally you have done the best you could. I congratulate you for this. You are a strong woman and I am proud to write to you.

3

I truly believe that giving birth is a choice that must be made with the mother's consent and vote. No one else has the right to even comment unless they were specifically asked. Parenting is one of those truly individual and natural things that no other person or rule of law has any rights to interfere.

3

I appreciate you've taken on the awesome responsibility of the propagation of the species. I'm sure that is one of many factors in your choice to become a parent and highly likely a minor one in your list of priorities.

I chose not to long ago and I'm happy I overcome the theist fantasy it's just something you're supposed to do. Likewise, I'm glad to be a male and, as such, somehow immune to the societal stigma a childless woman faces...for too many I'm a happy bachelor (which I am) and not a "spinster".

That beings said, I am not a woman and, moreso, I am not anyone else. I have no right to demand what shoes you'll wear on any given day. As such, I have no right to any opinion that will have such a profound effect on the rest of your life.

As a teacher and counselor I have seen the terrible consequences of unwanted children, many who live tortured lives because too many thought having them, or demanding others do so, was merely "the 'right' thing to do".

I have as well and it's why I feel so strongly that no one be forced or coerced into parenthood.

3

I have two wonderful children, but it was a choice that their mother and I had happily made. One of my kids is a girl. She is 9 right now, but I will absolutely oppose for the rest of my life any attempt to force her or any other woman to give birth. Time we stop letting our fantasies about the afterlife dictate our policies.

3

You are so right about all, that you report in your narrative. Actually, it seemed depressing to read! Ofcourse, this from a view at the advanced end, after the children are all grown up. This may be the reason that youth don't come with wisdom, first! There would be very few people, if they knew the full story!

I'm not trying to be depressive but I am brutally honest about what having children costs. I firmly believe that the extreme pressure on parents is why we're seeing so many social ills. No one should be doing this job unless they are willing and ready.

@Blindbird completely, agree! My depressed state of mind came from knowing how ill equipped I was as a young mother and how much harm that caused. That cannot be undone by me, now!

@Freedompath I don't believe it's possible to avoid every mistake. We sure beat ourselves up about them afterwards though.

2

I totally agree, but I have another take. My Mother was a Nurse, an administrator for a number of years. I asked her about abortion once and her take was different. This is a representation of what she said. There are many who live on farms and care for animals. All these people have seen births of animals that do not make it. They do not make it because of deformations, physical and mental. If one has the knowledge that a human is going to be born with some deformity that will be a real hardship on the Mother, the Family or Society as a whole, one may want to do something that will make this problem go away. There is no fault in this as it is a hard decision that the woman should be able to make. It is beyond the understanding of many that ending a process can be seen as nothing but a bad thing. One cannot make another walk in their shoes and we have to allow for the freedom of people to make decisions which they will have to face for the rest of their lives. I have had close friends have to go through this process and I feel for them, much to understand that cannot be done without having the problem yourself. That said Abortion should be legal no matter what I think, I am a man and ultimately my being should not influence the question.

Yes. My main point was that it should always be up to the pregnant person to make that decision. People know their own situations best and are therefore best at deciding what works for them.

2

So extraordinary well stated! Thank you!

Thank you. 🙂

2

Excellent post. I don't have kids. Many ladies thinking about motherhood should read your words.

1

Amen sister!

1

"No one should become a parent without understanding and enthusiastically accepting all of the risks and responsibilities that come with the title. No one should ever be FORCED to take all of that on. Particularly not to satisfy the beliefs and biases of those who do not understand the gravity of what they're demanding."

im not pro-life but at the same time u say "no one" but that just isnt how it works. men are at the will of the woman period on this one. im cool if a woman has the right to choose but at the same time men should have the right to choose as well and if he opts for "abortion" and the woman keeps it then she shouldnt be able to reveal the father to the kid or be able to ask for any assistance in raising the child. the abortion thing is nothing at all to do with EQUALITY in any way. it all about special privilege for the woman. men are forced by law to be financially on the hook even if he isnt ready and if he don't come thru its time for jail for him. a woman that don't want the child has that option. either men should be able to abort or they should be able to keep the child if they want it without any help from the mom as long as the pregnancy isnt in danger of killin the woman. men are told to MAN UP, u laid down and made it so now u got to raise it but never will the phrase WOMAN UP be allowed cuz that would be forcing her to do something she don't want to and we arent allowed to expect women to be responsible for their actions at all it seems. rape is another great example of how women get privileges, if a man has consensual sex with a woman that is drinkin that is rape but if the man was drinking well...he should have known better than to get so drunk he would do something stupid. the feminist agenda is really hurting women more in the long run with this 3rd wave garbage. want examples of how? look up all the women asking where have all the good men gone and the answer is u all don't need them and have pretty much been bashing them for 40 years now. the new wave of MGTOW and Herbivore men in Asia is something that will cause change without ever fighting for it their self. women are already the most unhappy they have ever been in history and its only gonna get more sad as it goes. more and more younger guys are seein thru this stuff and takin the "Red Pill". shame and insulting don't work anymore. the left has use the terms racist and sexist and such so freely they have lost all of their power. I mean look at the president and all his flaws that ppl ignore cuz of the left wing nut cases pushing an agenda based on dishonesty and every time it gets challenged all that u hear is racist, sexist, or any other attack then its shun and silence them. that game is done now, a sexist racist has won the office of president thanks to the left wing lunacy. thats why I left the democrat party the day after the convention. sad part is the party thinks they can push this trump russia BS and that will be enough to beat him in 2020 but it won't. unless the left wing voters wake up and force real change in the dem party then Trump will be re-elected. only way he loses is if a 3rd party person comes along or a new face from the Justice Dems gets the nominee. the incumbents there now are done cuz fo this past election. none of them can win a national election against Trump.

jorj Level 8 Feb 25, 2018

Wow. I can feel the anger and hate coming off my computer screen. While there are women out there who use their sex to manipulate men, there are far more men who use their power and might to manipulate, overpower and rape women (in many different ways). If you don't want to pay for your bad decisions then keep your pants on. There are PLENTY of ways to prevent pregnancy (really wanna "stay safe" - get a vasectomy). If you don't trust the partner you're with then, again, keep it in your pants. Or "man up" and take responsibility for the decisions your little head is making.

W.T.F. Privilege for women???

Dude, unless some woman got pregnant by raping you, which effectively never happens, if you get her pregnant you are a father with all the responsibility that entails. If that makes you uncomfortable get a vasectomy or don't engage in sex.

Paragraphs. Please.

@Druvius it does happen. It's grossly under reported HOWEVER this guy is a misogynistic troll hell bent on turning himself into a victim here.

@Blindbird Oh, for sure. As an aside I love how sometimes MRAs like to say that men are victims of rape at rates approaching women. And technically they are correct ... because they are counting prison rape. They don't follow this through though, because all this means is that if men can't get at women to rape ... they rape other men. Still leaves rape as almost overwhelmingly being a crime perpetrated by men.

@Druvius that is a very good point. It's really easy to dismiss the whole equation as men=rapists,women=victims and I try not to do that.

Now guys like Jorj here really piss me off because take advantage of the fact that reasonable don't do that. All the while claiming that it is the other(dirty liberals and feminists) who is TRULY victimizing him and his ilk.

It is deceitful and nasty and reprehensible behavior but of course he's just "being reasonable" and "playing devil's advocate".

Women are the unhappiest they have ever been? Oh boy, read some history.

Borrowed from the lovely WizardBill

0

Sex has consequences and responsibilities. Don't want those consequences? Nor ready for those responsibilities? Then having sex is itself irresponsible.

"But sex is natural!" many will say. "Sex is part of life!" they will continue and I agree. However, by that same token, childbirth is also natural and childbirth is also a part of life.

"But it's a womans body!" they will rebut. "A woman should have control of her body!" they will continue and again I agree. However, While the definition of when life begins is shrouded in debate, the genetics are not and at conception, you have a genetically different object that is no longer your body.

So abortion is a bit of a catch-22 for me. On the one hand, every time you have sex, nature, science, history, all say that sex's role is procreation and that there is always a chance you will have a child (barring tying tubes on men or women... and even then there is a small chance!). As such, much like if you drive a car you accept responsibilities for anything that happens while you are behind the wheel, if you have sex, both parties should be responsible for anything that happens as a result of their union and abortion is responsible in this case the same way that throwing a bag of kittens you aren't prepared to raise into the river is responsible.

OTOH, bringing a child into the world for which you are not prepared can be cruel to the child. You could be dooming that child to a life of misery and poverty and continuing the same cycle that makes both partners unprepared to be parents in the first place (like drugs). It is also cruel to society that will have to bear the burden of your mutual inability to take responsibility for your union, not to mention the social effects of an adult that was not properly raised will have. As well, when the union is the result of violence or incest, then again it is unfair to the woman to have to endure that trauma for 9 months to life.

So on the whole I'm pro-life: a miserable life is still better than no life at all. But there are still those nagging scenarios that make being pro-life morally the best stance but socially not so much.

I strongly disagree with your stance on this for the reasons I stated in my post. Furthermore you have absolutely no right to demand that others lives according to your opinions. I detect more than a bit of moral judgement on people who have sex outside of your narrowly defined parameters. No one has elected you judge or jury over others choices, decisions or bodily autonomy. For this I am immensely thankful and I will fight you and those who think the way you do as long as I'm able.

@Blindbird

Your post is about responsibility.
So is mine.
Not sure where in your post you disagree with my stance that if you can't carry the responsibility of having children, then you should consider not having sex since that is the only 100% scientifically proven way to not have children for which you can't be responsible for

Furthermore, I've made no demands that others live according to my opinion given that my post was about my feelings on the matter and not my demands or being "judge and jury" on others.

@TheMiddleWay I disagree that having sex means you have to accept becoming pregnant AND continue that pregnancy when there are safe and reasonable options to end it. We are not living in the dark ages here. Again, according to the law of the land no one is legally required to put themselves in danger of bodily harm or death to save the life of another. Whether they brought about the circumstances or not is irrelevant. You CANNOT have a special law that requires specific behavior from only one class of person, while excusing all others. Therefore if no one is required to put themselves in harm's way to save another, and pregnancy carries the risks of death or bodily harm you CANNOT require women to continue any pregnancy whether you consider the fetus a person or not.

I also vehemently disagree that a bad life is better than no life at all. There are many scenarios that people live every day that would convince me to end my life voluntarily. Death or non existence are not the worst things,by far.

@Blindbird

"I disagree that having sex means you have to accept becoming pregnant"

If get behind the wheel to drive, I have to accept the responsibilities of any "accidents" that occur because of my choice to drive. If I have consensual sex with someone, likewise I should have to accept the responsibilities of any "accidents' that occur because of my choice to have sex.

"Therefore if no one is required to put themselves in harm's way to save another, and pregnancy carries the risks of death or bodily harm you CANNOT require women to continue any pregnancy whether you consider the fetus a person or not."

I never considered the fetus a person nor used religious arguments for my stance; Please keep that in mind when evaluating my point of view.
And I agree with abortion in case the pregnancy carries risk of death or bodily harm; I'm sorry I wasn't more clear on that point in my original response.

@Blindbird

"I also vehemently disagree that a bad life is better than no life at all."

You say that from a position of having a life though... we can never give that choice to those we have aborted, now can we? We've made that choice for them.

In fact, as you say you would rather die than live in certain circumstances, we should then give all those aborted on the premise they will have a bad life the chance to make that decision on their own, wouldn't you agree?

@TheMiddleWay yeah and if you have an accident you fix the fender and move on. You don't destroy your whole life and possibly the lives of others because you're"guilty". That's stupid. No I do not agree. Theoretical peoples rights do not trump the rights of those who already exist. Don't think I don't notice that you have no facts or legal precedent to back up your opinions.

@TheMiddleWay ALL pregnancies carry the risk of bodily harm and death. There are otherwise healthy women in their twenties and thirties dying from childbirth complications every day . There a hundred things that can go sideways in the process that kill or maim the mother.

@TheMiddleWay
[npr.org]

@TheMiddleWay
[npr.org]
You feel it's acceptable to ask these women to suffer and possibly die for YOUR beliefs?

@Blindbird

"Don't think I don't notice that you have no facts or legal precedent to back up your opinions."

I provided as many facts and legal precedence in my posts as you have in yours... or did you conveniently not notice that? 😉 .

RE: the NPR article you posted, I can only repeat what I said in my post above in hopes you will stop trying to convince me of something we already agree on:

"And I agree with abortion in case the pregnancy carries risk of death or bodily harm; I'm sorry I wasn't more clear on that point in my original response."

But that doesn't change the fundamental point I'm making that if you don't want to take that risk, you don't perform the action that will lead to that risk, i.e. sex. And if you do perform that action, unless your life is threatened as per the NPR article, you should bear the responsibility of your actions.

The fact that a man thinks he has anything to say on the subject of a woman's body is laughable. Abortion on demand. End of.

@GoldenDoll

What fantasy world do you live in where only women get to have a say on women's bodies and only men get to have a say on men's body and only children get to have a say on children's body and only dog's get to have a say on dog's body etc, etc.?

All joking aside, equality of the sexes means that men get to comment on women's body and women on men's body.

And as a man, I have serious reservations about "abortion on demand" and thus my voice is heard just like yours is.

End of.? Hardly. Start of equality more like it.

Why do you say a miserable life is better than no life at all?

@DelilahJones33

To have loved and lost is better to have never loved at all.

To have lived and suffered is better to have never lived at all.

Put another way:

If I want to end my life because it's miserable, I should have that right.
However, you should not have the right to end my life, or the potential for it as in this case, just because you think my life might be miserable.

@TheMiddleWay right but why do you think a miserable life is better than no life?

@DelilahJones33

A miserable life always has the possibility to be less miserable or not miserable at all tomorrow as long as you are alive.

If you are dead, then there is never that possibility.

Some possibility for improvement is always better than no possibility for improvement.

@TheMiddleWay O.K. folks. I have been in this situation and it passed. Thankfully. If not the only way I could see to get out and have a decent life was to commit suicide. My sound like a bit much but that was the way I saw it. Fortunately there was a path that did not for this. One has to realize that if they are going to make decisions that others are going to have to live up to then they also have a responsibility. Since this is almost never a path taken one has to realize they cannot make someone else live to their standards. A lived situation is far different than one idealized by not having understanding. Hope I am making sense.

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