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I do so think that on occasion atheists tend to think religion is not all bad. As a teacher I find it hard to accept this. If you are lying to someone you diminish trust. As in lying to a lover. Yet we tend to think it’s ok to lie to a child. This can lead to the delusion that elected Trump! Also it is important to note that they indoctrinate children because they are easy to shape. Once warped they are harder to ground back into reality as an adult. This happened to me and I get angry when thinking of all those wasted years spent in fear on the guy in the sky!

Joshuahenley 6 Mar 3
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23 comments

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9

I think that the problem is that a lot of these people do not think that they are lying. They were raised to believe in hell and fear god's wrath, etc. They too were brainwashed at very young ages and so they believe it to be the truth. I have Christian friends and it always makes me sad to see them teaching their kids about things that the child is too young to understand or form their own opinions about. Unfortunately, I don't believe that it is going to change anytime soon. On the plus side, polls are saying that the new generation of kids is the least religious thus far, so maybe things are changing for the better.

5

I only see religion as mind control so it's always bad. Not to mention all the hours wasted that could go to doing good for the planet. Far fewer conflicts, war and decisiveness.

4

If they don’t believe they are lying doesn’t that make it worse? I come from an area in which students believe that if they go to college they will lose their religion. So they don’t go, or find religious schools. We give this behavior a pass and don’t call it out. I believe that is the essential problem

But you can't force people to think the way that you do. We may want to knock some sense into these people and make them see what they are doing is wrong, but to do so usually makes them cling to their bibles even more. Not to mention the fact that religious people, still to this day, are threatening and/or committing murders and other atrocities against those that do not share their values. I think that atheists are better than that. But, if you find an anti-stupid stick, please let me know. I could definitely put it to good use. 😉

At that point,yes,it becomes a problem.

@icolan yup and that's what I'm doing with my kids and the ones I help out with. Fascism and censorship are the same whether they wear a religious or Atheist face. Those are NOT things I want to teach my kids.

@icolan you don't see where the ideas of outlawing religion or writing laws about who it may be taught to and when have anything to do with fascism or censorship?

4

Imagine how many people would be nonreligious if there was an age requirement where you could try to push religion on them, say 15 or 18. There would be much more. Some call this an "age of reason."

I like your idea but I would much prefer the minimum be closer to twenty-five. Teens are very susceptible to new ideas and concepts. If you give a young adult a cause to believe in they will fight and some will die for the cause. Our own North American history has many examples of that.

That's well into censorship territory there.

2

Not all religion is "as guilty" of lying. Liberal Christianity is guilty of lying mainly to itself, has a relatively live-and-let-live ethos. I have nowhere near the issue with it that I do with fundamentalism.

I am of the belief that the way out of religion for society is through religion. I don't see massive numbers of people deconverting and becoming militant atheists. Rather, I see larger numbers of people maturing into a more liberal, inclusive faith that leads with good works rather than dogma and authoritarianism. Eventually, a few generations hence, people think of church as a place of community and support, with some quaint traditions that aren't taken too seriously or even deeply understood anymore. They become like the Masons, no longer actual stone masons, their original raison d'etre long since obsolete in a world without guilds.

I see it this way because (1) society isn't in my view ready to cleanly exit childhood, or even eager to, and so will cling to the religious security blanket; (2) at this rate it will take another thousand years for religion to become a fringe element in society through people overtly turning away from it, but could transcend itself in the manner described above, plausibly, in a two to four more generations.

Well said. I think that's exactly what we see happening right now and it's why religious people think they're under attack. The more education and free flow of ideas and information we have as a society , the harder it is for those restrictive and outdated dogmas to flourish. Education is the key.

Well said. I think that's exactly what we see happening right now and it's why religious people think they're under attack. The more education and free flow of ideas and information we have as a society , the harder it is for those restrictive and outdated dogmas to flourish. Education is the key.

Well said. I think that's exactly what we see happening right now and it's why religious people think they're under attack. The more education and free flow of ideas and information we have as a society , the harder it is for those restrictive and outdated dogmas to flourish. Education is the key.

2

I've never met an atheist that "thinks religion is not all bad". Have you?

Hi! Now you've met one.

@Blindbird Interesting - could you explain which bits of religion you think are "good"?

@GoldenDoll there have been a good few philosophical concepts that have come directly from religion. I think religion has been a comfort to many. Yes, it may be the opium of the masses but just like opium,it has practical uses. As I mentioned farther down in this thread, I think that the power structures built around religion are the actual problem.

Didn't you know that religion was invented to build power structures? What else is religion for?

@Blindbird and which "philosophical concepts" come directly from religion?

@GoldenDoll I am well aware that it's what religion has been used for,yes. Religion was invented because people had questions they couldn't answer. It is a tool,like language or an axe. What you make of it is what's important. The tool itself is not inherently evil. So long as we're focusing on irrelevant problems we'll never get to solving relevant issues. Religious,not religious let it rest. Let's talk about real world effects and questions and problems that are solvable.

@Blindbird Yawn.

2

Hi fellow Oregonian. You are is a very pretty part of the state! I have done many hikes in your area.

" I get angry when thinking of all those wasted years spent in fear on the guy in the sky!"

Me too, especially in years one and two of my deconversion. They had lies to account for everything. I missed out on fully living my life during my most youthful years of my life. It pissed me off to no end. I am doing my best to make up for lost precious time with my older body. Every day is sooo valuable. After all, this is the only existence I will ever know.

2

verery true

2

I think ALL religion is EVIL. I also think children should never be lied to.

I concur!

1

If children are not being indoctrinated by religion, they are being indoctrinated by governments, I think the brainwashing from both sides needs to end.

1

I think they all suck. Its the reason the world is in such turmoil, has been for hundreds of years! As John Lennon sang, "Imagine no Religion". This planet would so much better!

1

Whoever thinks religion is not all bad is not an Atheist.

I see nothing in the definition about thinking religion is bad.

@ Blindbird, don't need a definition to know religion is bad, just the way they conduct themselves is enough for me.

@Blindbird To each its own

@slinkie59 ah but the arbitrary gatekeeping is big problem for me.

1

Uncle karl called it :"opium for the masses" Think about it, opium is not bad. It is very good when you are in pain and have to carry on. The pain of existance has to be mitigated somehow, plus keep people motivated to work harder, faster, better to achieve the dream of capitalism: continuous growth.

1

On the other hand...mythology has played an important part in human lives for a long time.

There is nothing wrong with religion as long as one doesn't take it too seriously.

1

That,s a really good point!

1

I'm an agnostic atheist. I don't think religion is all bad. Religious positives include:

  1. Setting and policing a moral code (some people seem to need this.)
  2. Providing answers to unanswerable questions (thought science has provided much more plausible answers to many of them over the years.)
  3. Providiing a sense of hope and control in hopeless or frightening situations (pray to God that the crops won't fail or the volcano won't erupt.)
  4. Providing comfort in our own mortality, and that of those we care for.

In some ways, I envy people who have faith. They have access to all of these things, and I don't. Whether God exists is moot. Either way, religion is a man made construct designed to provide all of the above, and to allow those in charge to control its followers.

It's only a lie if you don't believe it to be the truth. A Christian passing on Christianity to their offspring is not lying to them. They're passing on their truth.

Really? Do people need the bible to be moral? I know I don't. Thats b.s. Passing this crap on to offspring to me is wrong until there is proof there is a god. Religious beliefs are the core to so much evil in this world and to keep this fairy tail going is crazy to me. Just saying.

@icolan

  1. Splitting hairs, much?
  2. Yes they do. In primitive societies, they explain why the sun rises and sets, why there are warm and cold seasons, why there are tides and stuff like that. Nowadays we have answers. Back then, they didn't, and used their imagination to create what to them were the most plausible explanations at the time.
  3. Is a false sense of hope of any value? As a coping mechanism, it can be.
  4. Same as no.3 really.

The religious moral code - stone a woman to death if she's not a virgin on her wedding day, kill your children if they're rude to you, don't wear mixed fibres. You can keep your religious moral code.

@GoldenDoll Different times. Religion has evolved since the Bible was written. No, it's no longer okay to rape a woman as long as you marry her afterwards. But it's still wrong to climb out of someone's window with their iPhone and all of their jewellery. And sadly, some people don't have the social conscience to realise that, unless there's a threat of going to hell in it for them.

@NicoleCadmium - Oh right - my mistake - so the buybull's not the word of god then. Just a history book of those times. Pity he didn't write an update. Especially about the slavery thing.

@GoldenDoll Of course it's just a collection of folk tales. Anyone who isn't a Christian can see that. The question here is whether or not there's anything positive to be gained from religion by the people who follow it. I can see that people do get lots of positive things from being religious. I'm even envious of some of them.

I'm getting some rather aggressive answers here for honestly answering the original question. I may be unusual here in not hating religion (I do have a bee in my bonnet about Catholicism, and I think everyone has a right to about the murderous factions of Islam) but I'm willing to see the positives as well as the negatives. And when you're attending a funeral for someone you cared about, it must be easier to cope with the idea that that they've gone to a better place, than to believe that they've simply stopped existing, and never will again.

@NicoleCadmium Obviously the positives you mention are all rooted in fantasy. It seems your coping mechanisms are still stuck in religious mode. I prefer to live in the real world and deal with the horrors we have to face using logic & reason. You should try it. Life is so much better when you face the truth, and realise you're not going to meet Granny in heaven, but that her memory, and her atoms, will always be near us. Good luck with your progression.

@GoldenDoll Have you actually read what I've written? I don't believe in God. When I die, I believe that's an end to my consciousness. The very first thing I wrote was that I don't have access to these coping mechanisms, but that I sometimes envy those who do.

I may not be a believer, but I'm not so blinkered that I can't see the comfort that religion can bring to those who are. It's about being able to appreciate someone else's point of view, even if you don't share it, rather than demanding to be right and that everyone who disagrees admits that they're wrong. We're the first to criticise Christian fundamentalists when they do that sort of thing. So why do we get a free pass?

1

I'm one of those atheist that think it's not that bad. Well... Let me put it this way, some of them are not that bad. So it's not universally bad. You got controlling atheist out there to. Atheist tend to think of themselves as more rational, than everybody else but I simply to not believe it. I know an atheist that believes atheism is a leap of faith and science is "bullshit". I dated an atheist that believes in aliens and 911 was an inside job by Bush. The list goes on.

My main concern is fundamentalism, be it religious or not. I think atheist need to get off their high horse and realize we are human too. Just because we figured out the God question didn't mean we got everything else figured out.

Sorry for the rant.

JeffB Level 6 Mar 4, 2018

Absolutely!

0

I see getting angry over the past as even more wasted time and energy. You could choose to rejoice that you corrected your path early on !

0

I don't see religion as anything other than a negative. No only for the person being indoctrinated but for society as a whole. If you want to stop mass murder I contend that eliminating religion would be far more effective than eliminating firearms.

0

I agree with all of what you said. I would say I'm one of the people who say religion is not all bad, but its like 75 % bad. Mostly because its taught it instill fear, especially in kids (definitely did for me), and also promotes the acceptance of societal inequality.

The positives I think tend to include humanitarian efforts and, when followed, some of the moral rules. Of course, these could be found without religion, but many don't undertake them without it. Then of course we can try to figure out if they're doing it to be nice and religion is a pathway for that, or if they're just doing it for heaven points.

Plus I guess the contributions to art and music are nice.

But yeah. fear, doubt and more fear? Thats bad. Very bad.

Of course some argue that letting a kid believe in Santa isn't too bad, but Santa doesn't tell you you're going to suffer for all eternity if you're bad. So I'm not sure its really close to the same thing.

0

Life can be incredibly difficult. Facing the random events that come into it every day can be overwhelming. Just everyday things like the crazy stress of your job and taking care of kids to the shocking things like unexpected financial hardships, breaking of long term relationships, the sudden death of a loved one. Doing all of that on top of living in a constant existential crisis can be more than some people can bear.

I don't bregrudge anyone using a crutch if their legs won't suooprt them, or using meds for mental illness where their mind betrays them, or distractions to dull things when they just need to hide for a while.

When religion works, it is because it is used to hide from the existential crisis. That's seems fair for those people. They get a sense of safety and community that helps sustain them. I don't begrudge them that. They find it works for them and they teach that to their kids and for some it becomes a working model. I know people who live this way and harm no one.

The issue comes when they think they get to force it on others either wholly or by passing laws that only apply to their belief. It occurs when they feel they must have uniform conformity to their belief; when they ignore science in favor of faith. I know may people who live this way as well.

I think it's important to separate the two. I have no problems with someone else's delusions, if it helps them get thru life and be happier in some way. I have enormous issues with it when it start spilling onto others.

0

You make it seem like a conspiracy. That there are some that do conspire, I have little doubt. I do think that most indoctrination comes from those that actually believe in the benefit of faith in the incredible. That it often leads to poor life choices, I also have little doubt.

0

I don't think religion is all bad. There are a lot of valuable concepts that religion introduces and explores.I think power structures, on the other hand are bad and tend to breed abuse.

@orange_girl the question was not "do we need them" it was "do you think they're all bad".

@orange_girl that wasn't the question stated. It's not our place to make those decisions for others. That way lies censorship and fascism.

@icolan it's a personal choice. We can't go around forcing people to believe what we believe. We CAN educate and spread reason and evidence based critical thinking.

@icolan no Sir the original statement was "I do so think that Atheists tend to think that religion is not all bad". Further down in the comments I was asked what makes religion not all bad in my opinion. I answered. Now you and orange girl and a couple others have been moving goal posts,implying that I'm somehow not a "real"atheist because I don't agree with you 1000 percent and generally not making a lot of sense. Come back and debate when you can do so above the level of a middle schooler,thanks.

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