pretty much

whatever

@powder To my mind, "Creation is not necessarily "free will". We may have been destined from the beginning of creation to create what we create.. We have to have the illusion of free will to think & act, but no one knows if it is real.

Symbols are not reality either. Logos (thought/word) becoming a person (flesh) becoming light which is thought. Beautiful poetry, but does it mean anything. Some say knowledge/thought created the principles which are the illusion of reality. Mystics say they can experience this reality directly. But us non-mystics still wonder.

The dance of positive & negative (electron/neutron, yin/yang) is said to have created the universe. The "waters" may be the depths of unconsciousness that underlies consciousness. We also have a duality between unconscious & consciousness. Water is plural, as it is found in different bodies, but is basically all the same, H2O. It is both singular & plural, thus the symbol of duality.

Does this mean anything or is it just word magic woo-woo

I disagree. we can't reach the speed of light but we accept Einstein's constant. there are quite a few things we know by theory only but we know there is some physical rule we just can't explain yet. I believe in the seer. that also corresponds to double slit results.

@Bobby9 you're missing the point entirely. on purpose I s'pose.

@Bobby9 I have no problems living on a theory.

@Bobby9 The speed of light is always constant, that's hard physics. The fringe pseudo-science theories that claim otherwise have so far provided no evidence or experimental prof.

As far as “we” know is not very far. The nature and origin of conscious awareness is a deep mystery that is understood by no one. A number of very eminent scientists have thought that consciousness is primary and can not be explained by the firing of neurons.

@JeffMesser I'm going to link this here because I don't like the quantum woo-woo.
[agnostic.com]

@Bobby9 The speed of light ( the constant ) is not the speed of light at all times, for example light moves slower through water than through air than through vacuum. The constant isn't about light, it's about causality. The speed of light is the speed at which all things occur. If it were infinite, then all things that could happen would happen instantaneously.

Imagine you were on a train moving 300 m/s. you throw a ball towards the front of the train at 200 m/s. From inside the train, the ball is moving at 200 m/s. from outside the train, the ball is moving at 500 m/s. This makes sense because the ball traveled a greater distance when measured from outside the train

Now lets say you had a flashlight. You measure the time it takes for the light to go from the back to the front of the train and determine it is moving at 299,792,458 m / s

You might expect the person outside the train to say the light is moving at 299,792,958 m / s but instead they say it is going 299,792,458 m / s same as what you measured!

So what is going on here? The answer is that the speed of the light ( causality ) is always the same, no matter what.
[physlink.com]

@Happy_Killbot and I'm gonna link a middle finger at your "woo" comment. don't criticize if you have nothing to proffer yourself.

@JeffMesser proffer?

@Happy_Killbot your computer doesn't have a dictionary?

@JeffMesser Wait, I wrote like 6 paragraphs about why quantum dynamics and specifically the double slit experiment doesn't have anything to do with consciousness.

I don't like it when people misrepresent science, because that's how holocausts happen. It might feel good to say "The double slit experiment proves consciousness changes reality" but at the end of the day, its a lie. That isn't what the double slit experiment shows, it's a misrepresentation of science.

I mean, the wisdom of Deepak Chopra can literally be attributed to mashing together random words. Just to prove my point, only one of these is a real quote, the others were randomly generated here: [wisdomofchopra.com] can you tell which one is real?

"True identity is a reflection of the door of brain"
"Greatness is inside spiritual silence"
"The unexplainable transforms nonlocal sensations"
“Passivity is the same as defending injustice.”
"Each of us requires an expression of belonging"
"Infinity constructs existential fulfillment"
"The ego grows through personal truth"
"Information depends on karmic potentiality"
"The secret of the universe meditates on intricate love"
"Freedom shapes total bliss"

@Happy_Killbot OK I'll bite. I believe that:

• the substratum of space IS consciousness; and
• it is all one in that it's interconnected; and
• a particle offering a 0 to be met with a 1 is immediately connected via consciousness thus violating but exceeding the EPR paradox; and
• whatever unifying theory is finally deduced will be
  binary.

These are also the same tenets supported in the narrative of the Isa, Katha, Chandogya, and Mandukya upanishads. These scripts exist in sanskrit from 500 BC regarding memorized stories from thousands of years earlier. For instance, the Rigveda references geologic events regarding rivers in the Hindustan region known to date back to 5,000 BC and some references to the last ice age over 10,000 years ago. In Hinduism this consciousness is called "brahman". In Buddhism it is called "the self".

@JeffMesser I believe that consciousness is totally tied to the brain, and that we have no where near enough information about the brain and the way it works to prove that consciousness arises from the interaction of neurons.

In particular, this is supported by the fact that:

• consciousness goes away when someone goes to sleep, is in a coma, or gets knocked out. Therefore it can not be a physical constant, because physical constants can not be removed.
• This also suggests that consciousness is an emergent property rather than a force.
• Not all things are interconnected, because we have a horizon at the edge of the observable cosmos due to it's expansion, over which nothing can interact with.
• I have no idea what your last two statements mean or what that implies because it is too vague and doesn't make any useful predictions. What would any theory being binary mean?
• old viewpoints and ancient scriptures conflict with each other, and can not be simultaneously correct. If you pick and chose certain portions of a book, you can make it say whatever you want. For example, I could take the Harry potter series, and pick just one or two words off every page until I have written the works of Shakespeare.
• old information is most often to evolve and change. For example, a short time ago I had never heard the word " proffer" and assumed you wrote "prove" and replaced it with " offer" If I only accepted old information, then I would have to assume that "proffer" isn't a real word and thus I could not learn.

P.S. the correct quote was: "“Passivity is the same as defending injustice.”

@Happy_Killbot Actually western science is far behind that of the Indian culture when it comes to consciousness. The present fad over mindfulness meditation comes from hindu scholarship over 1 thousand years old.

The issue you present about consciousness not being present outside of the present mind is the exact issue tthat ancient vedic scholars use to show that it DOES in fact exist. The entire exercise of meditation was created for focus in the attempt to isolate consciousness from the body. Our awareness is divided into 3 levels by western science with a 4th added by Hindu: waking, dream state, dreamless state, and turiya (which literally means 4th in sanskrit). All 4 of these were also addressed in the katha upanishad a few thousand years ago to show that consciousness WAS present at those times. I think you should check out the Vivekachudamani by Swami Shamkara written in the 8th century.

I do appreciate the fact that you were in the proper ballpark. Most people aren't even close. At least we were both at Wrigley.

@JeffMesser When you fire electromagnetic vibrations into the claustrum people become unconscious instantly. Every attempt at finding pieces of consciousness in individual groups of neurons has failed, however it only takes a large electromagnet ( or hammer ) to remove consciousness completely. If it was somehow some indelible part of reality, then it would have been around since the beginning and it wouldn't ever go away. This isn't the case, so we know it is wrong.

When you talk about 3 levels of awareness, are you talking about Freud's delightfully primitive work? I don't buy any of that, or only 4 states of consciousness. All I see is 100 billion neurons with a quadrillion neuronal connections that somehow produces awareness when they are all together, that isn't there when they are not.

Consciousness arises from the brain and the body, and if either are destroyed or altered then consciousness goes away. There is no evidence whatsoever that suggests that the mind is outside the body, because it isn't.

@Happy_Killbot I have really worked on that threshold issue you discuss. While I have no problems black boxing the operations overall, at some point I have to know some generalities of the ops to know if I am on the right path at least.

My first thought was brain structure. I studied the neuropathy of corvids (crows, ravens, magpies) and other social creatures who exhibit behavior that shows empathy. I see this development as one like breaking the dimensional barrier from 2D to 3D. To ascertain status of the seer we need an objective viewpoint above 'the forest". Kind of like envisioning the tesseract with only visual cues allowing us to perceive depth. In social and general psychology we place ourselves in the shoes of the person we are communicating with in order to ascertain effective communication. The mirror neurons provide this feature theoretically, and philosophically I contend it is evidence of the self. At least I believe the key lies there. So my research continued into human neurology and archaeobiology.

Somewhere in the homo sapien lineage before orangutans split from the common ancestry early hominids gained an extra scrap of mitochondrial DNA. I think the particular sequence is in the STEM21 section or whatever they call it. It was inactive but we have found it in common fossilized DNA from pre-homo heidelbergensis hominids. At some point AFTER the orangutans split off that DNA became active. It is the sequence that makes an amino acid which causes stem cells to make brain neurons. While the cranium size remained constant, neuron density increased anywhere from 6-8 times. I think this is and was where we crossed the threshold to potential awareness as a species. But I certainly respect your criticism and inquiry here. It's an unresolved but fascinating subject.

I recently read an article about neuron firing actually causing a burst of light. That presents some rather interesting variables to consider. I think I am on the right path and will keep researching. But all the while this narrative is supported fully by writings made 3,000 years ago plus.

@Happy_Killbot To discuss a few of the interesting points you made, are not dreams a form of consciousnessness. Neuro-physicists tell us there are various states of electronic activity in the brain-alpha, beta, delta, & theta. Theta is an extremely deep level reached by very experienced meditators, but it does involve awareness, even though all normal senses appear shut down.

Medical personnel have discovered people in a deep coma are aware of things going on around them. .

I think we must define what we mean by consciousness, as it apparently is not just normal waking awareness (Beta).

As far as I know, the word "proffer" has long been used in law. When someone prepares to turn state's evidence, they submit a "proffer", which is a revelation of the useful information they can give.

You guys are having a very interesting discussion.

@JeffMesser I have no idea what you are trying to say and I am 98% sure that everything you just said is just a hodgepodge of scientific terms that doesn't have any meaning.

"I see this development as one like breaking the dimensional barrier from 2D to 3D"

What?

If anyone offers you some coolaid don't drink it.

@Happy_Killbot on a side note this is extra interesting because I am also carrying on this same conversation with a physics professor in India right now. He's asking me about the factors in Schrodinger's balancing equation and it's really cool to see how all these different fields interact. Some day we will put all this together and figure it out. There is a physical law or rule that makes all this happen. I don't believe in mysticism.

@Remiforce This is definitely the most bizarre and interesting conversation I have ever had, I thought we were talking about physicalism vs.dualism but apparently not. I haven't seen any good arguments and it just keeps escalating to new woo-woo heights yet untold.

@Happy_Killbot really? I open up and actually engage the discussion and you demean my work? It's not a hodgepodge of anything. have you never studied dimensional space? our perceptions are limited to 2D with subtle cues to recognize depth. the point was when you jump up a level your perceptions must also change to take in the added dimension. have you ever seen a picture of a tesseract? they draw dotted lines to indicate the backside of the box we can't see whereas if we were actually afforded 4th dimension senses we could perceive all the way around it. It's a perch of objectivity and discussed by both Einstein and Faraday (who saw in pics without knowing the math similar to me - my math sucks). If you examine my subjects above you'll find my views are at the very edge of modern scientific knowledge in the fields. don't belittle me there.

@JeffMesser What is the connection between 2D and 3D perception and species that show empathy? Your explanation does nothing to resolve your fundamental proposition. As far as we know, the universe has always had 3 dimensions, and don't bring up the holographic principal because it might just be a mathematical coincidence. Even single-celled archaea that live in freshwater can tell up from down using a special proteins.
[phys.org]

"...hominids gained an extra scrap of mitochondrial DNA....It is the sequence that makes an amino acid which causes stem cells to make brain neurons."

Mitochondrial DNA doesn't affect stem cells, it affects mitochondria because they have their own DNA which is separate from the rest of the cell's.
[ghr.nlm.nih.gov]

What is your work anyways and in what ways is it scientific? Do you have hard evidence that anyone can do and get the same results, or just a lot of wild speculation? What are we even talking about? This whole conversation is one big Gish gallop.

@Happy_Killbot here's an idea ... open your mind up to new possibilities for a moment instead of just trying to poop on everything.

[sciencemag.org]

@Happy_Killbot It is interesting but not bizarre. The science of brain wave states is well documented. The awareness of people in deep coma is very well documented. Apparently there are many forms of a state that might be called consciousness.

We are talking about physicalism & dualism, in the sense we have a possible duality between the body & consciousness. To say consciousness is only a by product of physical activity in the body seems reductionist. Certainly that the expression of consciousness involves our brain state seems obvious, but to say they are one seems an unfounded assumption. Association does not mean unity.

Brain function depends on electrical as well as neuro-hormonal activity. Electricity is energy, not matter in its current state--it is particles & waves. Wires (neurons) may conduct electricity, but they are not energy. To reduce consciousness, which in our experience results from brain activity, to a purely physical phenomenon, seems to my mind a contradiction in terms There are too many mysteries here, such as the relationship between the energy in our brains & dark energy/matter.

Then we come to the connection of our individual awareness to the real state of existence. No one knows what that is, & I don't pretend to, as some do. But I am not arrogant enough to say even my expanded conscientiousness is the essence of existence.

Don't worry, I have just begun to ascend the woo-woo heights

@JeffMesser That article has nothing to do with what you said, and doesn't prove anything, this has nothing to do with mitochondrial DNA, consiousness, or perception of depth.

I still don't know what we are talking about, this started with don't misrepresent science and somehow we are talking about tessaracts and neuron development. I don't think I can continue this conversation because i'm not even sure we experience the same reality.

@Happy_Killbot that article has nothing to do with a major change in neuron density? While I may be accused of confirmation bias you are likewise guilty of pessimism and failure to read the source. I'd say you need to open up your mind a bit more and read a wider area of interrelated fields. I'd start with Dr. Norman Doidge's book on neuroplasticity and brain evolution "The Brain that Changes Itself" along with Yuval Harari's "Sapiens".

@JeffMesser, @Remiforce So physicalism has more to do with the idea that the brain exists as a physical object in reality, and that the brain is what causes consciousness, rather than it being some natural property of the universe ( for example: mass, spin, charge )

This is pretty easy to prove, as I stated above all it takes is a hammer and a disregard for the sanctity of human life. We can place neurons on a piece of gold foil and wire them up to form a calculator, or fly an airplane and it won't be conscious. This means that consciousness is a property of neurons being in a specific pattern, and energy moving across those neurons in the form of electric signals and neurotransmitters. Based on this information alone, and the fact that manipulation of the brain of a living organism fundamentally changes it's conscious experience, I would argue that the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of consciousness being the result of the brain through neuronal interactions.

That being said, our understanding of the brain is in it's infancy. If everything to know about the brain was a mile, we would have traveled only an inch.

Also just to clarify a little, electricity is caused by the flow of electrons and generates a force because of the relativistic effects of electrons moving through a wire.

Dark matter/energy are cosmic phenomena that are not yet understood and are not relevant to neurology.

All of this being finally in the open, I understand that some people don't like to accept that their brain is what makes them experience reality, and that when we die and our brain ceases to function that that is it, and so they tell themselves this lie that consciousness is outside the body and death doesn't make it go away, but just leave the body and go elsewhere somehow so as to avoid nihilism.

Normally this would all be fine if it gets people through the day, but in practice it has lead to all sorts of horrific crimes against humanity whenever someone else gains control of the narrative and uses it to control the masses. So for that reason, I reject the notion of infinite existence, and embrace the meaninglessness of this accidental and temporary existence.

@Happy_Killbot that was a bunch of claptrap. keep reading the thoughts of others because yours are stuck.

@JeffMesser I've already read sapiens, and I may read the brain changes itself.

I would say you need to be more critical of the information you are consuming.

@JeffMesser I prefer to be a producer of information.