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Is chivalry SEXIST???

  • Not allowing women to pay
  • Female centric courtship
    -Doing things for women that you wouldn't do for anyone else (Not just your lover) opening doors & letting women go first. Yet neglect to do the same for others.
    -Being the romantic instigator 90+% of the time
    -Playing socially defined gender stereotypes
  • 30 votes
  • 39 votes
  • 24 votes
JoelLovell 6 Mar 21
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58 comments

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30

It depends. Do you do these acts simply to be kind, or are they expected? Are you doing them because you inherently believe it's a man's job? I think it can be sexist on both sides. Why can't women be chivalrous? Why do men have to be? Is it to assert dominance or show 'I am a man this is a man's job to provide and show my power' or do you expect something in return?

Too many factors to make a concrete "sexist or not sexist" answer. It all depends on motive and the person you're being chivalrous to.

What she said. ๐Ÿ™‚

Being polite is never sexist. Although sometimes it's seen that way. I open the door for a man, or if I'm in front of a man or woman I'll hold the door. I have dropped the door on both sexes trying to push past me. I shouldn't it's a jerk thing to do, but rude will on occasion get rude back.

I think what triggered my response was the statement "playing socially defined gender stereotypes". I do NOTHING based on what society thinks. Change needs to happen. Women outnumber men and men are still making the rules because so many women are either too intimidated or too lazy or too spoiled to assert themselves. I have always been a rebel...and therefore, considered odd. That is, however, just fine with me.

20

I'd like to see "chivalry" done away with, and for people just to be kind to each other.

YES!! Why should kindness depend on one's gender???

18

Haha! I'm nicking this.

roflmao...gotta steal this!

12

Given your parameters, yes. But good manners are simply good manners.

Whats good mannered about paying for everything?

The paying for everything came under the sexist category. On my first "dates", I'll get the tab if we're having coffee or beers unless she wants to pay for her own, but dinner or movies or things like that is when I'm all about equality. If/when we become closer, we usually take turns picking up the check.

12

I had been a new office at work , for about a year , when a guy held a door for me (first time) , then as I entered , he said , now see , this is why men get paid more than women . I was taken by surprise , but then pointed out , that this was the first and only time a man had held a door for me , since I came on board in this office , and frankly , since I had held the door , when someone had been carrying stuff , according to his concept , I deserved a promotion .

That guy's trying to make a lame joke (I hope) or he's just an asshole. A pleasant smiling "fuck off" usually works I've found.

Wow! ๐Ÿ˜ฎ

10

I always hold the door open and allow someone (male or female) to enter before me.

Hell! There could be a gunman or anything in there!!!! ๐Ÿ™‚

10

Depends. Are you being courteous? Then no. Are you FORCING your courtesy on one gender? Then yes. If you can give and receive equally, then it's just being courteous, even if we do call it chivalry.

I work with a fiercly independent gal and you'd better ask her before helping her. She WILL give you an ear full if you don't. Ask her though, and it's ok. So long as she is allowed to do her own thing. Meaning that if you are helping her when she doesn't need it... no. Not sure this last helps... I consider myself egalitarian (I at least try, no, I don't always hit the mark but I am really trying to) and chivalrous and... well, I helped when I should not have and it caused me to step back and consider why. It was because I did NOT ask.

I also hold doors for whomever comes along. If you hold it for a gal (or guy) then drop it on the next person to come along... you are sort of singling out that one person and it's not ok. Hold it for any and all comers and it's ok... granted, be prepared for a lot of all comers. ๐Ÿ™‚

I'll steer clear of someone that "gives me an ear full" if I don't offer to help. I'll leave the room they're in and not engage the next time either way. That's male or female. Who needs that crap. I'm old enough that I generally don't take an "ear full of anything from anyone" unless they are paying me lots of money.

9

Most of Chivalry actually details combat etiquette, not treatment of women. But what rules do exist in Chivalry for the treatment of women are fairly sexist. The meaning behind them is somewhat appaling frankly. The holding of a door? The man is allowing the woman to enter the building. That's one rule I can think of at the moment.

Thank you for mentioning historical chivalry. Some people have such romantic notions about knights.

It is a cultural thing... in some cultures Cretan Greek for example man walks in first and scan the room for enemies if none found, he will open the door for the woman... it depends on the culture bro.

I'll hold the door open for either gender, I'd not shut it in their face! But that does put a new spin on it.

9

Today I met up with a girl I worked with last year, we had a nice morning, checked out a few places and decided on lunch. I insisted on paying, pretty much because I am under less financial strain and though she has some savings, she is going backwards week by week. I would have done the same for a guy. Technically I do not think chivalry is sexist, and do not consider the examples given pertain to chivalry. Sadly, chivalry is very religious.

7

Honesty is SEXIEST. ๐Ÿ™‚

hahaha OH SEXIST not SEXIEST. hahahaha Forgive me JoelLovell for screwing up your vote. Hell yes Chivalry is sexist btw. Hope you have a good day

YES!

7

If you do things to/for one group but not to all then surely a type of -ism is affixed.

6

I have it on good authority from a few feminists that everything is sexist. ๐Ÿ˜› (Kidding, kiddingโ€ฆ sort of. Put down your pitchforks and torches.)

I think there's a difference between being chivalrous and being overbearing. Offering to pay for a meal isn't the same as not allowing women to pay if they are so inclined. Doing things for one's lover without doing those same things for someone else isn't a problem, in my mind, because I'm closer to my lover and feel like doing more for her because of the intimacy we share (but, with that said, I open doors for everyone when it's practical to do so, just out of politeness). And I expect that she'll go out of her way for me sometimes in ways that she wouldn't for other people. Instigating romance was never a very strong suit of mine, but it's very often the case that one person is more aggressive in that respect and it's fine or expected that's how the dynamic works so long as it's not forced or coerced. In terms of socially defined gender roles, just do whatever feels natural as long as it's not hurting anyone. Who cares whether it's socially accepted or not? In the end, it comes down to what works for two (or more) people in a relationship, what works for them in terms of intimacy, etc.

A well structure responce sir i can clearly see you can read. (Unlike some)

6

Chivalry is condcending and pandering under the guise of deference to women. Treating women as "special" is a way of making a "power statement". A true person of high moral character treats everyone respect fully and equally. Compasion, empathy, and kindness extended with conviction are the hallmark of a true gentleman. A favorite quote from Thomas Pain says it all, "the world is my country, to do good is my religion ".

6

I enjoy someone who treats me special. I like to reciprocate too by paying for a night out

Sunny Level 4 Mar 21, 2018

Exactly - thank you. I hold doors for everyone, and reciprocate when paying. It's all about being nice, for g*dssakes.

@poetdi56 I think that what you're describing is exactly what Joellovell is saying: for everyone and common courtesy GOOD, treating women special and ONLY women BAD ๐Ÿ™‚ That's what I think anyway so I totally agree with both of you!

6

Just a funny quote:

I yearn for true gender equality. I have no patience for one who talks about female privilege when it suits them, and then complains about someone "not being a man" when it's convenient.

-Satou Kazuma

Chivalry isn't entirely bad. some can call it sexist but it's a part of being a good man. Chivalry and manners are the traits that separate the boys from the men. We need more men in this world who will do things for others out of chivalry. We need less boys who grow to become selfish and rude.

So yes, chivalry can be sexist. But what's wrong with that? Men discriminating by gender to act nicer towards women than men.

Also not all men are like this. I treat men and women the same, I hold the door for both and try to be friendly to both. I'm polite, well mannered and chivalrous to everyone I meet.

What's wrong with "Men discriminating by gender to act nicer towards women than men."? First, it's unfair to the human beings who are men. Why should they get less kindness because of their gender? Second, the tradition in western culture of men "acting nicer towards women than men" is based on a historic view that women are weaker and need men to protect and take care of them (in certain ways). So even if, in the moment that you "act nice" to an individual woman, you are feeling and intending complete equality, your gesture still carries the weight of centuries of women being considered "less than" men. Therefore, this kind of different treatment of women still telegraphs that they are inferior, even when you don't mean to do that. Sort of like calling an African American male a "boy" - you are responsible for knowing that the word carries a lot of meaning in this culture, and therefore you should use it very carefully.

@Atheisteuse

I'm not sure if I understand. Are you agreeing with me and elaborating on a point?

I mean I'm just naturally respectful and courteous towards everyone unless they give me a reason not to be. I'm a kind person but I have a very anti-human agenda. I'll do things for others but I also dislike being used like some kind of tool.

@Lancer Hi Lancer. I'm disagreeing with a part of your comment. I find your comment a bit confusing, in that one paragraph says you treat men and women the same, and yet in another you say what's wrong with acting nicer to women. I disagree with the part about acting nicer to women, and my reply was directed at that. I understand that many people mean well, and think that being nicer to women than men is benign, but I don't think it is, for the reasons above. Does that make sense?

@Atheisteuse

Yeah, that makes sense.
I personally treat everyone with courtesy and respect but I accept that everyone is different and some people may treat women better or worse than they treat men. That's up to them.

This is just my personal experience but I have to friends who are sisters. Their dad basically raised them as boys if that makes sense. They both like to go shooting, drive race cars, both are studying engineering, etc. They're tomboys. I found that they were much easier to get along with than other girly girls who are more concerned about their looks and getting boyfriends than focusing on their future careers and self improvement.

I could be wrong but I just think that maybe instead of raising boys to be girls we should try raising girls to be boys. I honestly think that's absurd but these 2 sisters are just so easy to get along with, they are intelligent, hard working, honest, etc.

@Lancer I like your story about the two sisters. I was a "tomboy" myself. It was difficult in many ways, because everyone criticized me for not being "girly" enough - my parents, my schoolmates, even teachers felt free to tell me I was too boyish. I am straight, but many times people have assumed I'm gay just because I am not into makeup and clothes and pretty things. On the other hand, even though it was difficult to be criticized, I am glad I came up during the 60s so at least there were a lot of other people doing rebellious stuff and that gave me some support.
I think the best way to handle ALL of these gender issues is to stop pushing people into gender stereotypes. Why is a girl who likes to go shooting and drive race cars any less of a girl/woman? Is there something about having a penis that makes a gun or car easier to use? Of course not!! Our culture has arbitrarily assigned certain activities, feelings and interests to each gender.
When I visit Africa, some of the things considered "manly" here are considered "girly" there, and vice versa. The men I met in Kenya wouldn't be caught dead carrying firewood for the family - that's women's work!! They scoffed when I even suggested it. Conversely, I saw a man in Kenya driving a tractor and wearing a hot pink fleece jacket. I asked my Kenyan friend if that was a normal color for a man to wear and he said "sure, why not?" He was amazed when I said that in the US it would be considered unmanly. We have to start thinking of each other as people first, regardless of gender. We are so much more alike than we are different!

@Atheisteuse

I completely agree with you on everything you've said here.

I would say rather than force gender stereotypes we should just think about what kinds of qualities are important to pass on to the next generation. Qualities like integrity, respect, discipline and manners are very important. But other less important qualities can be optional as far as I'm concerned.

For me I just want the next generation to be better than the last. Regardless of whether they're male or female, we should all work together for a better future for our children.

6

Depends on the tactical situation. As with all human interaction, context changes everything.

5

I think it's just plain stupid. Equality should mean balance in all things. Many of These social norms have their roots in religion. Stop teaching Males that Females are damsels in distress that need rescuing, because it is bad for both genders. Instead teach that being good to one another is a virtue.

5

Perhaps just exhibiting common courtesy toward all is the best way to go. I'll hold a door for anyone, particularly if they appear to be older than me.

Yes, this is definitely the way to go

5

It's hardwired into the male psyche to protect women and children, as I have always done since early childhood.Even though I'm only a partial transmale who is bio female.

However, men heavy in female traits, the creative, high IQ ones, statistically speaking, can be the sort who want women to pay, won't assist or help or protect them. These men can be dangerous for women since they won't have your back, often critical, picky, moody, and prone to leaving relationships.

If your man won't take care of you, why would you bother with him at all? Like women need another child to take care of..NOT.

I like this. For my part, I was taught to be polite, including holding doors open and my children have been taught and practice the same. We always make sure we say thank you and smile when doors are held open for us (or whatever niceness has ocurred).
In my experiences with men, both personal interactions and via observation...the type you describe certainly exists!
But I've never had a problem with being "taken care of". I like it! I expect it. Like you said..."why bother" if they aren't there to protect you? But then...I'm taking care of him as well. I've always felt it goes both ways.
Is this a generational thing? I just don't have that negative, knee jerk reaction when men act "chivalrous" to me. It doesn't insult or demean or threaten me in any way. I just think..."oh, a gentleman, how nice...thank you!" And go on with my day...

4

Absolutely not. I have a certain code of living that I live by. It will not be compromised by circumstances or individuals. If my date or significant other has issues with my polite mannerisms then we will talk and I will try to convey to her how I live and how strongly I feel. I have dated women of different race, cultures, religions, economic and social backgrounds and we usually come to some type of common ground on the issue.

4

To answer the question as it is stated, yes.

Betty Level 7 Mar 21, 2018
3

I hold doors open for someone a step or two behind.

Rude as hell to make someone trot and try to catch it.

I'll let someone with only a few items in line in front of me at the grocery store. If the lines are backed up.

I cringe at the idea that it is a woman needs protectection mearly because of her gender though.

"Just be excellent to each other." - Add guitar riff

3

As far as I'm concerned, chivalry just consists of good manners.

3

Love and lasting relationships are reciprocal. Doing for each other without archaic rules getting in the way. Equality works. Doing it together for each other.

3

Some things might be considered sexist. As a woman, I appreciate when a door is opened for me and am allowed to enter or exit first, but it's not ever expected. Sometimes I don't mind doing that myself. It's give and take. Certain things shows manners and respect. Some guys like to be chivalrous, some girls like to be pampered. Then again, some women don't need all that. As long as neither party is being rude.

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