It's also extremely hard to believe the fantastic New Testament stories about miracles and widespread fame for this person, if he DID exist.
Where are the testamonials from historians, scribes, and other chroniclers of the people and events of that time?
There was not a single speck of a mention by ANYBODY!
AND, if the miracle stories are NOT true, this person, if he DID exist, was either a lunatic or a charlatan...
OR simply was a mannequin others decorated and adorned with jewelry and fine clothes..
LOTS of speculation about that, but no matter the details--who, why, how--we can be confident Jesus either was a fictional character or a flesh-and-blood man with no miraculous powers.
The whole edifice thus comes tumbling down.
Did those responsible (Essenes, in tandem with extraterrestrials, for example!) seek to birth a new Jewish mystery religion, based on lost ancient knowledge, or something?
Maybe.
Or maybe the Romans DID make the whole thing up!

@Storm1752 Exactly. The Jesus of legend was a legend. The later gospels, after Mark, actually enhanced his legend by adding additional stories, such as the angel Gabriel annunciation, and the wise men narrative. (Merry Christmas!) Yeshua ben Yosef, in his day, was inconsequential. Just another false Messiah and there were over 200 of them. However, his existence, in passing, was later mentioned by Pliny the Younger, Tacitus, and Josephus. But if as the Mythologist conspiracy movement claims, those were all later editing forgeries, and the Flavian Emperors actually invented Jesus, how is it possible that there were popes in Rome before the Flavian Emperors? That would require that the Flavian Emperors not only invented Jesus but invented their own Roman history, as well, including Vatican papal documents.

If the Flavian Emperors actually invented Jesus, how is it possible that there were popes in Rome before the Flavian Emperors? That would require that the Flavian Emperors not only invented Jesus but their own Roman history, as well, including papal documents.

@Heraclitus The Flavian emperors came WAY before popes!

@Storm1752 Not unless Roman history itself was forged. The Flavian dynasty was a Roman imperial dynasty, which ruled the Roman Empire between 69 AD and 96 AD, encompassing the reigns of Vespasian (69–79), and his two sons Titus (79–81) and Domitian (81–96). The Flavians rose to power during the civil war of 69, known as the Year of the Four Emperors. The first two popes, Peter and Linus, listed in the Annuario Pontificio, predated the Flavian dynasty.

"Trumps" as in the similar actions to the so named #45, ignores or sidesteps facts and evidence, or changes to suit his warped desires. OMG, that man has changed our lexicon.

@HippieChick58, @Imatheistically
[vocabulary.com]

Sh*t"s getting deep!

Lots of stuff there but it doesn’t flow with any continuity. Perhaps bullet points with a summary might help this bear of little brain to comprehend.

I don’t see how you ger from Isiah to John with any argument for the connection, It’s just slotted in.

The interweaving of Jesus and Osiris makes no sense in the construction. I understand the mythical correlation of Osiris Risen, but unless anyone is aware of that it is quite confusing.

It seems you are referring to texts by Pike whose influence was over the Scottish Rite and not Freemasonary per se.

@Geoffrey51 thanks for your observation. I do not consider it anything of finished product of a writing. I do use this platform as a place to get thoughts initially written down, use it as a sounding board and on some occassions someone might comment on the general context that better helps me get my understanding organized.

For clearifing your Isaiah to John connection:

Isaiah says [prophesies for "the lord" ] blessed be Egypt my people.

The "lord" is Egyptian.

Then I found Osiris stuff that I am not much familiar with but giving alternating comparisons between what I found about Egyptian Osiris compared next to what is written as to what Jesus said according to John.

So, it appears that what was written about Osiris is something that could be viewed as comming about.

Osiris was widely worshipped until the decline of ancient Egyptian religion during the rise of Christianity in the Roman Empire.[15][16] wikipedia

Horus gradually took on the nature as both the son of Osiris and Osiris himself. He was referred to as Golden Horus Osiris.[27][28][29][30][31] In the temple of Denderah he is given the full royal titulary of both that of Horus and Osiris. He was sometimes believed to be both the father of himself as well as his own son, and some accounts have Horus Osiris being brought back to life by Isis. Wikipedia

Can we say Christianity is the son of Egypt but it is still itself as Egypt as was the father but they are the same? So, it is Golden Horus Osiris leading the Masonic lodge secret religion racist devil worshipper governmental terrorist.

As to your comment about ... Scottish rite is "OF" Freemasonry ... Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry, or simply Morals and Dogma, is a book of esoteric philosophy published by the Supreme Council, Thirty Third Degree, of the Scottish Rite, Southern Jurisdiction of the United States. It was compiled by Albert Pike, wikipedia

@Geoffrey51 it is looked at as conspiracy theory crap but it IS connected with these words.

Psychological meme [of a form of government/religious control]

Cognition - though/word capabilities

Logos - Within Hellenistic Judaism, Philo (c.  20 BC – c.  50 AD) adopted the term into Jewish philosophy.[7] Philo distinguished between logos prophorikos ("the uttered word" ) and the logos endiathetos ("the word remaining within" ).[8]

The Gospel of John identifies the Christian Logos, through which all things are made, as divine (theos),[9] and further identifies Jesus Christ as the incarnate Logos. Wikipedia

Ruach - force [like breath] or [could it be the force behind breath which would be the thought of the mind/brain. ]

Spirit is used to replace ruach in biblical text.

The "mythological" thoughts of Egypt Osiris while Israel was there before being lead out by Moses gave for the "son" thought/words ... John 1:14 ... the logos become flesh.

Paul the apostle understood trying to explain 1 Corinthians 2:16 for, "Who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

So. Christianity/Masonic lodge secret religion racist devil worship "New world order" is the son/father of Egypt Father reincarnated into the mind of current modern people as psychological meme.

@Geoffrey51 clear as mud?

@Word okay with you now. Good idea to use this forum as s sounding board.

I know there is some crossover with Mary and Isis so the Jesus/Osiris correlation would work.

I always have a problem with the levels above the third in respect that were they grafted on to the guild levels or do they grow out of the guilds.

I don’t have enough study in this field to have an opinion really, but I suspect the former

We know the third tracing board is about death and rebirth so I wonder if the rebirth is symbolic to the ascension to the fourth level if invited..

We must also not forget the central relationship to Solomon’s Temple.

Intriguing eh!

@Geoffrey51 could you imagine a China, islam, or what ever else "new world order" example style for government? What is shortest way to describe "new world order " style of government? The words [logos]? Are in writing (laws) as to define the government and itself, function and dealings with its capitalism slave labourers.

@Geoffrey51 It exercised all the authority of the first beast on its behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed. Revelations 13:12

Beast is metaphor for "laws of government "

As to the first and second beast, maybe some research could help but maybe the first beast is representation of Osiris then the current new world order is requiring worship of the first style.

Submit to Authority-666 pay taxes.

@Word I am with you with regard to Ruach being equivalent to Logos particularly bringing Hellenic Judaism into the frame.

Not sure how Moses leading the Israelites out of Israel correlates with John 1:14.

Also not clear on how you arrived at your conclusion with regard to the racist, devil worship

@Geoffrey51 do you understand the metaphor "beast" as laws of government? Moses had written laws governing the people, old testiment law of Moses out of Egypt. It was "wounded" per say at the time of Roman invasion about 2000 years ago. Given the biblical text was per say eventually controlled by Roman catholic which fell into denominations and split losing world domination power but out of the dark ages gives rise to the "illuminated ones" illuminati light. Lucifer is meaning bearer of the light. Thus then we have rise of conspiracy theory theories that actually works toward keeping the power in control because the theories do not hurt the "establishment " .. I think things that rise or theorize against it are just written off as conspiracy theories and nothing done to stop Identification for taxation and government control such as requiring birth certificate, social security number and photo identification. As written, a means of controlling "buying and selling " capitalism.

Revelations 13:16-17 It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name.

Metaphor and riddles basically saying " everyone shall worship the "devil" (leadership), "the beast" (laws of government) submit to Authority-666 pay taxes "In God We Trust".

@Word Starting to sound like a David Icke book now.

@Geoffrey51 I do not have much specific knowledge of the levels of Masonic lodge but have glanced thru some stuff.

Here is a word connections I make with some pyramid hierarchy I seen taught by Masonic lodge teachings of levels like people are living stones of a pyramid with majority of people on bottom.

There is also biblical text where it can be extrapulated that the "body" of a person is the temple of "God" logos.

1 Peter 2:4-8 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
As Living Stones
4 And coming to Him as to a living stone which has been rejected by men, but is [a]choice and precious in the sight of God, 5 you also, as living stones, [b]are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 For this is contained in [c]Scripture:

“Behold, I lay in Zion a choice stone, a precious corner stone,
And he who believes in [d]Him will not be [e]disappointed.”

7 This precious value, then, is for you who believe; but for those who disbelieve,

“The stone which the builders rejected,
This became the very corner stone,”

@Geoffrey51 the few Masonic members I have known are racist. There is the prince hall.

But, research American Masonic and klu klux klan historical connections

"I took my obligations from white men, not from negroes. When I have to accept negroes as brothers or leave masonry, I shall leave it" Albert Pike 33rd* source: Delmar D. Darrah, History and Evolution of Freemasonry 1954, page 329. The Charles T Power Co.

@Geoffrey51 I do not know David icke

@Storm1752 I know alot about the myths of the bible, not everything but alot, so I can still res pond to this post and recommend good books to read and experts like Richard Carrier. so don,t tell me what to do, mind your own business, and keep your comments to yourself.

Basically Mark is the original and Matthew and Luke take stuff out and make their own with extra material. They are called the synoptic gospels.

Pretty much Luke cleans up Mark with improved grammar and adds some bits and pieces in.

Matthew on the other hand takes the basics of Mark then goes off on a few tangents and is an apocalyptic writer with a rollicking good yarn!

Some kind of wonderful!

Of course, there aren't any gods. But if there were, and I could get my hands on one of them, I'd for sure throw a couple of punches at the bastard.

Are those things found in the apocrypha? I don't recall Lilith or mandatory abortions in the KJV Bible I read growing up.

@UpsideDownAgain Of course you didn't read it, modern day Christian leaders don't want indoctrinated minds actually knowing what's in the Bible(s). The Old Testament, specifically, is full of stories of mandatory abortions (ie: drinking of the bitters/bitter water) mass murder by God (2,821,364 to be exact) Lilith, who left Adam because he was a whining little toad that wasn't even good at sex (she went to the Dead Sea and had sex with Demons, spawning 1,000 demon babies a day) and then incest. Oh, it's rampant. From Noah to Lot and everyone in between. Add brother on sister rape, and every other sort of inbreeding, you've got yourself a pretty foul set of myths to base a religion on, but it happened. Not to mention repopulating the world via incest ... pretty troubling in genetic terms.

@UpsideDownAgain If you're interested in scriptures to go along with the awfulness, you'll find most all of what I mention here in this group, plus a WHOLE lot more insanity not usually known or acknowledged by Christians.

[agnostic.com]

@UpsideDownAgain I don't remember seeing anything about mandatory abortions, but Lilith is in the Midrash. There might be one mention of her in the Hebrew Scriptures, but it is not conclusive.

You left out the succubus or succubi for the good times.

@Gwendolyn2018 Here ya go:

Lilith's one appearance in the Bible (although she does appear chronically at the Dead Sea, and in legends as the demon that causes miscarriages and stillbirths. Which makes NO sense because the Bible is fiction, yet it's characters have stands, visions, and folklore with the fiction, regardless ...):

Lilith next migrated to the world of the ancient Hittites, Egyptians, Israelites and Greeks. She makes a solitary appearance in the Bible, as a wilderness demon shunned by the prophet Isaiah. In the Middle Ages she reappears in Jewish sources as the dreadful first wife of Adam.

[biblicalarchaeology.org]

The wife of the biblical Adam
Lilith appears in the Bible, in the Book of Isaiah 34:14, which describes the desolation of Eden. From the beginning, she is considered as a devilish spirit, unclean, and dangerous. The Genesis Rabbah describes her as the first wife of Adam. According to the book, God created her and Adam at the same time. Lilith was very strong, independent, and wanted to be equal with Adam. She did not accept being less important than him and refused to lie beneath Adam for copulation. The marriage did not work and they never found happiness.
[ancient-origins.net]

Abortion as commanded (it happens more than once, I just happen to remember this scripture by name/number. Should you be interested, simply Google "abortion in the Bible by command" or "abortion in the Bible by bitter water"
Numbers 5:11-31
The Test for an Unfaithful Wife
11 Then the Lord said to Moses, 12 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘If a man’s wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him 13 so that another man has sexual relations with her, and this is hidden from her husband and her impurity is undetected (since there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act), 14 and if feelings of jealousy come over her husband and he suspects his wife and she is impure—or if he is jealous and suspects her even though she is not impure— 15 then he is to take his wife to the priest. He must also take an offering of a tenth of an ephah[a] of barley flour on her behalf. He must not pour olive oil on it or put incense on it, because it is a grain offering for jealousy, a reminder-offering to draw attention to wrongdoing.

16 "‘The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the Lord. 17 Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water. 18 After the priest has had the woman stand before the Lord, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder-offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse. 19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. 20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”— 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the Lord cause you to become a curse[b] among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”

“‘Then the woman is to say, “Amen. So be it.”

23 “‘The priest is to write these curses on a scroll and then wash them off into the bitter water. 24 He shall make the woman drink the bitter water that brings a curse, and this water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering will enter her. 25 The priest is to take from her hands the grain offering for jealousy, wave it before the Lord and bring it to the altar. 26 The priest is then to take a handful of the grain offering as a memorial[c] offering and burn it on the altar; after that, he is to have the woman drink the water. 27 If she has made herself impure and been unfaithful to her husband, this will be the result: When she is made to drink the water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering, it will enter her, her abdomen will swell and her womb will miscarry, and she will become a curse. 28 If, however, the woman has not made herself impure, but is clean, she will be cleared of guilt and will be able to have children.

29 “‘This, then, is the law of jealousy when a woman goes astray and makes herself impure while married to her husband, 30 or when feelings of jealousy come over a man because he suspects his wife. The priest is to have her stand before the Lord and is to apply this entire law to her. 31 The husband will be innocent of any wrongdoing, but the woman will bear the consequences of her sin.’”

@SeaGreenEyez Strange. They seem to have breezed over that section in Sunday School.

@SeaGreenEyez Thanks for the passages from Numbers--that explains the mandatory abortion.

Lilith is an adaptation from the Sumerian/Babylonian mythos in which she was a minor wind goddess or demon named Lilitu . She is first mentioned in The Epic of Gilgamesh as the "dark maiden" who perches in Inanna's huluppu tree and won't leave. She was known for harming children via the wind; most likely, this stems from the belief that wind carried pestilence.

The passage from Isaiah is often interpreted to contain a reference to Lilith as the "screech owl." Lilith is associated with owls, but the support is inconclusive--it is the passage to which I referred in my earlier post.

Lilith is mentioned in the Babylonian Talmud, but she was named as Adam's first wife in the Midrash to reconcile the two conflicting creation stories. In the first, man and woman were created at the same time but in the second, Adam is created and then, Eve is made from her rib. Lilith is named as the first woman in the first version who is made at the same time as the man.

The best known account of her is in The Alphabet of ben Sira. The story is that she refused to be submissive to Adam because they were both made at the same time and thus, were equal. When he refused to have sex with her on top, she spoke the Ineffable Name of God and flew away from Eden. She took up with a demon named Samael and they produced demon babies called the "lilin." Yahweh sent three angels to bring her back to Eden; when she refused to return, Yahweh declaed that hundreds of her lilin babies would die everyday. She then claimed the power to take the lives of human children for the first few days of their lives--this hearkens back to the Sumerian myth of Lilitu harming children. If parents put an amulet with the names of the angels sent to fetch Lilith back in the cradles of their newborns, it protected them from Lilith.

Then, of course, god made Adam and not making the same mistake, he made Eve from Adam's rib so that she would be subservient to him.

Lilith is one of my favorite characters and I have taught her story for years in mythology courses. I do not have sources at hand, but if you would like them, I can round some up online when I have time.

@Gwendolyn2018 I appreciate the offer. My best source for my preferred interpretation are my professor friends out of UCLA & UC-Berkeley. It's long been taught and is my understanding that Lilith has been accepted by theologians, archeologists, and others as needed to fill in the blanks, as is VERY often the case in Christianity, as people seek answers as to the vital question:

Who was the woman God made from clay/dirt, at the same time he made Adam?

Maybe you didn't intend to here, but it appears you're claiming Adam was made by dirt, without the woman he was created bedside. Again, that would as is often the case in Christianity, leave gaps to fill in.

At any rate, your interpretation is yours, it isn't universal and all that matters is how you choose to view or not the opinions of others.

@SeaGreenEyez I said basically the same thing as your sources said: Lilith was created to fill in the contradictions (not the blanks in this case) in The Hebrew Scriptures. Though Christianity does fill in the blanks, Lilith was created long before Christianity.

The Midrash was written, in part, to reconcile such contradictions and to interpret The Hebrew Scriptures:

"The Talmud (i.e., the Gemara) quotes abundantly from all Midrashic collections and concurrently uses all rules employed by both the logical and textual schools; moreover, the Talmud’s interpretation of Mishna is itself an adaptation of the Midrashic method. The Talmud treats the Mishna in the same way that Midrash treats Scripture. Contradictions are explained through reinterpretation. New problems are solved logically by analogy or textually by careful scrutiny of verbal superfluity."

[britannica.com]

I do not know where you got the impression that I said Adam was made “by” dirt; Yahweh or Elohim made Adam (depending on which book of Genesis one refers to). I cannot even see in my posts where I mentioned that Adam was made “from” dirt, which, in the second version of creation in Genesis, he was:

Genesis 2:7: And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Eve was then formed from his rib.

In the first version, man and woman were made at the same time, but how they were formed is not specified:

Genesis 1:27: So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.

The myth of Lilith explains why there are two versions of how the first man and woman are created. In addition, the two versions of creation have other aspects that do not jibe, i.e. the order of creation.

I do not know what you mean by “bedside” as there was no bed in the myths.

Some sources for my earlier post:

Inanna, Gilgamesh, Lilitu/Lilith and the huluppu tree:

[piney.com]

Lilitu = Lilith

[ancient-origins.net]

The Alphabet of ben Sira:

[jwa.org]

Note that in this tale, Lilith claims that both were made from the earth, which is not clarified in the scripture.

And actually, my interpretation is not “mine”: it is based on years of studying the work of people in the field. My interest is more in archetypes, but I have a fondness for Egyptian and Mesopotamian myth. I have not taught at UC Berkeley, but I have taught myth at two schools. As a student/teacher of myth and literature, I am well aware that myth and literature in general are subject to interpretation. No interpretation is “universal.” Even mythologists argue among themselves.

@Storm1752 I'm not certain what boring trash you mean. It seems to me that if you've never read it, you can't possibly know it's boring or crap.

I've never seen anything objective. The arguments I've seen all boil down to 'that's what we've always believed'. Color me unimpressed.