Some praise for ritualistic practice
It's all really a combination of biology, neurology, and psych 101. But first a little context ...
I imagine it all began as some cause and effect realization. Our minds do this naturally as we seek to understand the world around is via basic awareness. Some ancient hunter-gatherer realized that doing this thing often seemed to achieve this result. That was likely sparked in reverse ... a good effect happened and "Gorlak" wished to figure out why so he could make it happen again. What had he or she been doing different than normal? They repeated that thing and the persistent ones were rewarded via physical and mental conditioning.
That's when our amazing ability to communicate took over and rituals were born. Not to mention ritual science - the ancient forefather of modern science. The ones who understood the basics of whatever effect they wished to achieve were the shaman or priests or just wise old elders sitting around a fire smoking some dope.
The growth is rather organic and simple. Those first groups were familial mostly. So parents passed practices to kids and so on. In normal primate fashion the superior groups passed on superior traits and were emulated by weaker ones. These practices were passed verbally through rote memorization as a culture began and a written language eventually made the process more efficient.
Didn't really matter what the actual rituals were. Whatever method they found empirically associated with some effect when repeated. The more effective methods often, inadvertently, took advantage of normal body system functions. Those took root and grew while the less effective ones died out through successive generations.
When humans developed communities as agrarian skills began this process skyrocketed. Written language further evolved things. Our collective knowledge accumulated and began to build a civilization. These various communities all had practices of their own devise. But the fact they were all based on similar hominid biology meant that many of the methods were similar so some symbiosis developed ... and some did not. Thus you had your first religions.
The mythology always seems a sticky point. But it's all a matter of focus. A more focused mind accomplishes things more efficiently ... and religious devotion is a rather effective tool for those ends. The richer the mythology, the deeper the devotion and, thus, more effective practices. Fewer doubts, less hesitancy. You understand the concept. Some people are able to "lose" themselves in it. Some require a little more coaxing. And some will never acquiesce.
If you dislodge your hold on materiality and see the effects of those stories on their believers then you understand the value of the mythology. Then you turn to the practices themselves. I find yoga to be an excellent example of the effect. Yoga is nothing more than getting the mind to associate a particular activity with a particular physical and mental state. Simple conditioning a la BF Skinner. Same with meditation ... you combine the mental focus with an acquired physical state. Very useful techniques for daily living that employ the same principles as all other religious practices.
When you can learn to relax and focus then all endeavors are performed more efficiently. Conditioning your body and mind to do that through certain practices is a very beneficial development in natural human evolution and one I plan to continue. So deride it is you must, but at least understand the validity of the methods first.
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Feel free to reply to any comment by clicking the "Reply" button.Could playing golf regularly become a relaxed mental state associated with a physical state? Asking for a friend.
Grecio
Level 7
Mar 25, 2020
1
most certainly. it's yoga. so is gardening.
I always put my left sock on first... and once both socks are on it's the same with shoes. I haven't noticed any effect on my life so far.
So much for rituals.
Paul4747
Level 8
Mar 14, 2020
3
sure you havent. deny yourself that habit and see what happens.
@JeffMesser It's simply old military habit; lead with the left foot. If I took the time to notice, I probably walk that way, too.
@Paul4747 I understand that. Spent 10 years in the military myself. still ... deny yourself that habit then take your BP and pulse. you'll find that the stress denying such a habit will have triggered your limbic system to respond. it's a stressor.
@JeffMesser Habits and rituals can change. Sure, that is challenging. But life is a challenge.
It is far better to have a good understanding of reality than to rely on fantasy and pretending to cope in the world.
I see a benefit in rituals and often can see why we have them. As for myself, I am more of a watcher of who and how we are and how we became what we are. My concerns are with the objective experience as being our real experience. For the subjective, it can be anything that you want it to be.
DenoPenno
Level 9
Mar 14, 2020
3
One of the problems dealing with ancient people is that we look at them through our modern eyes, thinking they thought like us but with less science. Writers like Owen Barfield and Julian Jaynes are helpful to get us to see these people through their eyes. One very important conclusion, if it is true, is that ancient people had no consciousness as we understand it, but rather only the consciousness of the nervous and limbic systems. Barfield describes their sense of their world as being in it rather than outside looking in and terms it 'original participation'. Jaynes describes their minds as bicameral, the one side unconsciously engaging in life's common events and the other side unconsciously determined by what they saw as gods.
brentan
Level 8
Mar 14, 2020
3
the issue you bring up here is one I work on quite often. that point of perspective where you aren't stuck amid the trees in the forest but, instead, can see the whole thing. objectivity. I believe we seek it in our personal narrative of the world around us and that is a huge part of the appeal of religion. I think this is where cognitive dissonance and delusions spring from. but I digress ...
“It all began as some (imagined) cause and effect realization. Some ancient hunter-gatherer realized, (imagined), that doing this thing often seemed to achieve this result.”
The ritualistic hunting dance or sacrificial letting of one’s own blood before the hunt seemed to have a cause and effect relationship. But as scientists have known for centuries, mere correlation does not prove causation!
“If you dislodge your hold on materiality and see the effects of those stories on their believers then you understand the value of the mythology.” In other words, “If you dislodge your hold on reality and see the effects of those stories on their believers then you understand the value of the mythology.”
For example, if a person is in a very stressful situation and prays to his god for mercy, he may, subjectively, feel less stress – and this lessened stress is real – but this in no way guarantees his god will actually do anything. The person is relying on fantasy and pretending his ritualistic prayer will actually do anything.
Ergo: The value of mythology is relying on fantasy and pretending.
dare2dream
Level 7
Mar 14, 2020
4
it doesnt matter if it was the actual causation because for many of the effects mere subjective perception was the key.
@JeffMesser Yes. I understand. My point was that people rely on fantasy and pretending to get their comfort.
@dare2dream Like sport and soap operas and theatre
The value of prayer is that it might cause the prayer to feel better. However, it is a delusion.
@Grecio it's only a delusion if they don't understand where the help came from.
It’s hard for me to let go and be carried away by rituals. I don’t deride those rituals—I can see their benefits.
WilliamFleming
Level 8
Mar 14, 2020
2
and thats the "4th wall" realization that I gather from the vedas. they recognized that not everyone would lose themselves in the devotion aspect but they would attain the same benefits from what is called the "jnana marga" or "knowledge path" to moksha.
The more we understand the world and mind empirically, the more we can let reason guide our actions and the less we will need ritual.
Ritualistic hand-washing may lead to better health and happiness but now we understand the germ theory of disease we can wash our hands as reason directs and we can dispense with any ritual, which may dictate that we wash too frequently or not frequently enough.
Gareth
Level 7
Mar 14, 2020
2
and your minimization is fine for things like hand-washing. but what about doing things that are enjoyable or good for you? I personally don't mind using traits or responses of my body to stimulate my interest (or lack thereof) in an activity.
@JeffMesser "minimization"? It's possible to traduce a statement by gradually redacting its terms into specious synonyms until all the sense is wrung out of it. We must be careful not to do that. What I take from your post is that conditioned reflexes can be beneficial even if the reasons for that are not understood. They can also be malign, but you seem to be proposing that some sort of Darwinian selection maintains the ones that are fit for use and weeds out those that aren't. I find that dubious but am open to empirical evidence.
There's a sneaky argument along the lines of "my religion forbids pork; incorrectly cooked pork is full of harmful parasites that would make you ill - therefore my religion helps keep you healthy". That's not strictly untrue, but it's deceptive. What keeps us healthy is an understanding of parasitology, physiology and hygiene - any religious component is bogus. This applies to mindfulness, meditation and ritualistic practices too. When the mind contemplates the mind there is a whole warren of rabbit-holes to fall into.
@Gareth I think your argument is spot on and very logical. But I also still find it rather myopic. We do not have to understand how or why something happens to develop an appreciation for cause and effect. Given the myriad of physical interactions that this universe and reality subsists of it's foolhardy to think that we understand every single process and cannot make any expectation unless we can explain every process in detail. we have barely scratched the surface of the brain's operations yet even in the west we have an entire discipline based on predicting and even altering those processes. While I enjoy the security of the FDA testing process ... sometimes we must still step back and take a leap of faith based on observations of cause and effect despite not understanding each physical interaction that leads there. You have no concrete evidence that your body won't just wilt and die if you walk out the front door in the morning. You take that first step on faith daily.
@JeffMesser Essentially your post is an example of the argument from ignorance (q.v.). I have to disabuse you of the notion that I need faith to carry out the most simple functions of life. I have strong evidence that leaving my house will not result in my immediate demise based on empirical experience. Acting on evidence is not faith. When the evidence changes (such as may happen with the current coronavirus alarm) I will change my beliefs. Faith plays no part.
@Gareth that's myopic and ignorant of you my friend. you give the empirical evidence more faith than others may and just assume that everyone does the same risk calculation. That risk calculation varies based on your particular epistemology and background. So spare me your narrow-minded attempts at intelligence. you're hung up on your own preconceived notions so much that you can't see the forest for the trees.
@JeffMesser I don't engage in abusive conversations. You are blocked.
@JeffMesser Come on guys, play nice.
@JeffMesser, @Gareth Come on guys, play nice.
Routines and rituals are important to most mammals. If the ritual or routines successfully provides them with the basic elements for survival, they will return to it again and again. It calms the anxieties of the unknown and unpredictable. When routines and rituals become unpredictable or no longer net the desired results then a new one will be found to replace it (hence paradigm shift).
Humans are among the only organism to take routine and ritual to ridiculous ends. We are not an evolutionarily fit species.
t1nick
Level 8
Mar 14, 2020
2
Good post and explanation. I have no problem with rituals, we all have them. Most are of a practical nature. Rituals are grounding but the only trouble is when we attribute outcomes to a supreme being and thus starts all the mythology that the gods are responsible for outcomes. I really get tired of the "why" question. It just "is". Corona virus just "is". no retribution from an angry deity. On a much longer look at things, some day this planet will rid itself of us and start over somehow. After all we have not been here that long compared to the planet and will not last forever despite some people's thinking of our invincibility.
starwatcher-al
Level 7
Mar 14, 2020
3
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