At least he is trying! His examination and questioning of religionist thinking MAY be the way of getting them to be more rational and reasonable.

@Mcflewster That's why I said good luck with that. Now we all know he can try, but brainwashed minds rational and reasonable? Who's kidding who?

@Mofo1953 Change starts with someone who believes something is possible ( as long as we stick real).

@Mcflewster yes, good luck with that too!

@Mofo1953 Sorry I do not believe in luck. Life is what you make yourself do.

@Mcflewster ok, do you mind if I do believe in luck? So good luck with that too.

@Mofo1953 Why would I mind? I do not give permissions either, but strangely I like being asked.

That pretty well sums it up. If you're willing to believe with blinders on, you can avoid the realization that you've been scammed. I guess to some, trading your rationale mind for the illusion of a glorious eternal afterlife is worth the sacrifice. I grieve in the knowledge that the party will continue without me. Still, I wouldn't change it if I could.

@paul1967 I have to disagree with you about the "party will continue without me", unless you meant it tongue in cheek. I can think of little more boring than an eternal afterlife praising some petty deity who is so insecure he/she/it has to have constant praise. Ho hum.

@Khentyimentu No, I'm saying the preciousness of life requires an end, but I still grieve the thought of leaving the party (life).
In my opinion, the thing that makes life so precious is the awareness that I will be tapped on the shoulder and asked to leave at any point. I know many friends and family will be staying at the party, and I won't be allowed to stick around.
The notion of an eternal afterlife is forever Hell no matter how you dress it up.

You might not think it to be true, but I suspect you have made an impact on your brother. If nothing else, you made him think.

Believers are blind to such facts.

I think the point is that there is, at least for many, the perception of something. About 90% of the answers I get to the question, what convinced you, was "my personal experience." When asked what that experience was, the answers are often a feeling (love, acceptance, relief), all very powerful influencers to a primate mind. I believe religion is a virus-like thing that a small percentage of people are born immune to, and the cure is a resolutely secular community.

Not torah. The old testament, which is different in important ways, many interpretative. Not saying torah is better or realer, just saying christianity distorted it.

g

@genessa valid point...but as the Old Testament is based on The Torah...The Council of Nicea cherry picked and rewrote it to suit their needs. The Torah is still just as vague and biased as the Christian Bible that was based on it(the Old Testament that is). The Torah was the basis of Christianity. The Religion was formed around early Judaism and modified to fit the new interpretation. I find it ironic that "Jesus" made a big deal of "the money changers in the Temple" and yet the Catholic Church is the richest holding company on the planet. Smh. It is all fantasy and corruption.

@phoenixone1 yes, there is irony there.

note that modertn jews (i can't speak for the ultra-orthodox, but just about everyone else), unlike evangelical christians, don't purport to use the bible as a blueprint for behavior (that's ahy there is talmud to interpret it) but rather view it as a history book with lessons in it. in other words, just because someone had slaves in the bible and there are even rules regarding how to treat them, that doesn't mean it is okay to have slaves, i can't say as much for the extreme evangelicals who seem to think there is something about wedding cakes for gays, or about the right to bear arms, or about abortion, in their bible, and (ar least one idiot) won't wear masks because god doesn't wear one (if he has been meeting in person with his god, isn't that violation some social distancing ordinance?)

g

p.s. pardon any typos. my eyes are not working today.

@genessa what??? Eyes not functioning??? But they were just fine the last few short years of your life...your in your prime...praise Jeebus.

I like to take the religious incident and apply the science of today. Look at the Jesus birth story. Mary was probably between 10 or 12 when she was raped. We know that young girls who go thru this make up a story to be able to deal with it. So a soldier in shiny gear could be turned into an angel. There was a later story that a Roman Soldier named Pantera was the rapist. So she is pregnant and not married. The rabbi is trying to find someone to marry her to save her from being stoned. So all that hullabaloo and an imaginary angel has the child thinking her baby is special. Now imagine her telling her first born all his childhood that he was special ect:. We know where that leads! With all this it is no surprise the story turned out the way it did and explains why on the cross he asked God why he didn't save him up.
Jesus the man did exist and thought he was either a prophet or the son of god. Look at it from that angle and it makes sense. God really had nothing to do with it!

@Msgtthomyv if jesus existed, your explanation, which i have heard many times, is likely close to how it went down. however, virgin births being prevalent in earlier religions, i doubt jesus actually existed at all. at best he may be a composite (like robin hood, or king arthur, who actually have a better chance of having been real individuals than jesus does). i am not terribly concerned about it. i've never been christian and i'm not thinking of changing.

g

@genessa Theres enough evidence he did exist. I find the history of it interesting. Stuff like what made him think he was not only special but the son of the big guy! Really interesting book titled, 'Zealot' By professor Reza Aslan looks at him as a man in his times.

@Msgtthomyv what evidence? i don't think there is ANY. certainly no one who purportedly wrote the christian bible ever met him. there is no contemporary historical mention of him, despite some people's assertion that a random remark by josephus (not naming him) constitutes evidence.

g

@genessa Have you ever seen 'The Naked Archaeologist' A Canadian guy who does not dig up new stuff but reexamines stuff already found. Pretty neat. He did a series on the history channel that in some cases gave some credence to the idea he did exist. Pretty entertaining and presented in a neutral fashion. Convinced me he probably did exist. Why he thought he was God's son is for a psychologist! On one program he claimed to find the Jesus family tomb. Interesting show and I think he did find it. Ted Koppel did a hour show about it with church people and the people who did the show. They found a tomb in 1981 with ossuaries with what would seem to be the names of the family. As with all tomb finds the Israeli Antiquities Division buried all bones in the Jewish cemetery. It had one with the name Jesus bar joseph and one marked James brother of Jesus, one with Mariamni ect:. Anyway
The funny part was the reaction of the Church people. Mind you they claim to have found his bone box but the church people said it didn't matter to their faith. That is the crazy part. Religion is so established that what would ordinarily make people reevaluate makes these people double down.
I found it on You Tube if you are interested. I'm into history so I thought it was pretty cool.

@Msgtthomyv Yes i have seen it, if it is the guy i think you mean. I like him. I disagree with a lot if his conclusions, though.

g

Best pop it in a cave with some tablets of reasonable requests

@girlwithsmiles Might try selling it my Evangelidiot neighbour instead, I reckon he'd jump at the chance.
Btw, IT is an actual copper nail, the same kind that was once used in Australia in the late 19th. and early 20th. Centuries for fastening the slats, etc, on wooden packing crates and the like.

@Triphid I love stuff like that, my dad was once restoring a period piece of furniture and brought hand made nails for it, so they were in keeping with the rest. I’ve never seen a copper nail

@girlwithsmiles I'll take a photo of the one I have found tomorrow in the daylight and post it here for you if you'd like.

@Triphid I would actually. I’m a bit weird like that

@girlwithsmiles There you are, it is definitely copper because I've scraped off the years of dirt and the patina that was on it and it is copper in colour, tested it with a number of magnets, the shank of the nail is square, the tip is tapered similat to an Egyptian style Obelisk and it has a round, flat head that is broader than the body of the nail.
Given that we know pretty much when the Iron Age began and that Noah built his Ark long before humans started smelting iron then it is only reasonable that he would have used copper nails to fasten the timbers of the Ark, hence IT must have come from Noah's Tool KIt....LOL. ( Religious Sarcasm intended here)

@Triphid very neat, thank you

@girlwithsmiles Actually I gave in to temptation and cleaned it as best I could, now it shows it is 100% copper.

@Triphid they look a lot like:
[shop.classic-boat-supplies.com.au]
So quite ark like

@girlwithsmiles Very much like the one I have here.
Though I think any watercraft needing such nails would a bit of an oddity around here since I live about 100+ kms from the nearest, large source of fresh water and over 500kms from the body of sea water.