@Varn The ‘third party’ voters didn’t give it to trump...
The Electoral College — i.e., the Founders made sure that party hacks choose presidents.
The Founders also replaced a monarch and aristocrats with an oligarchy and unregulated capitalists.

@yvilletom, @Druvius Russia, wicky-leaks … and decades of Republican attacks swayed just enough Puritans to hand it to trump. Hillary would have been magnificent! (and you didn’t think she could lose) ...but thanks for the small show of Detractors - you were the reason I’ve at least a bit more in common than with the Deplorables

@OwlInASack They share the blame. To ‘remain pure,’ they withheld their vote for the only option to trump. Few thought he’d slip through … including him.. But those capable of seeing the larger picture and willing to support a very successful political team were left to do the heavy lifting.

We can only move as fast as the herd, attempting to prod or guide them at best. For those calling that ‘incrementalism,’ it’s worked for our opposition; even they lacked the guts for a true revolution. And sadly, those following ‘bernie/ nader’ (and that ilk) are not of revolutionary stock..

@Druvius She disliked campaigning and Trump loved it.
She wouldn't have screwed up as Trump has--in no trump, doubled and redoubled.

@Varn

You talk a lot about people being purists and you pass a great deal of blame on them. I've noticed that you are a hardcore purist of the democratic establishment. You are such a purist that you are incapable of understanding the rationale anyone else has for not voting the way you do.

@OwlInASack I’m lost fast with British politics, but thanks for the descriptions.. Regarding our ‘Biden crowd,’ there really isn’t any. There was tremendous vacillation in our early primaries … until it became obvious that Joe Biden had the most name recognition and assumed credibility of a very uninspiring lot… Our middle wants stable, but are too often tripped up by the extremes at either end..

What worries me is how Britton & the ‘Brexit’ vote was also largely manipulated by russia… But when the results benefit the worst among us ..they’re not about to change a thing.

@RoboGraham ...and that’s where you continue to lose me.. I’ve no doubt been involved with far more campaigns than you. Atheists are not electable in our society, so, those who care most do all they can … which often ends up being the dirty work.

I’ve learned, there are those so caught up in purist politics -- they lose track of reality. They abandon their ‘one-time’ saviors at the first compromise … and begin searching for another - as they now badmouth the first!

They exhibit a political naivety ..requiring those who apparently care more (those willing to compromise and engage with the enemy) to give them simple, basic advice. In my nation, it’s become supporting one party -- until that party acquires enough political power that they may be prodded toward the same goals I share with the most radical of far-left extremists (the part you continue to ignore ).

Most are not good listeners, or, lack the strength and/ or knowledge to support this strategy. So instead of attacking the hard targets … they fill in the circular firing squad.. ..or simply back-stab their own.

@yvilletom Yah, she was definitely the policy wonk, the A Student, a mother’s pride … and an insecure man’s greatest fear.. I wonder how all that would/ could have served us ..about now? We’ve a nation more concerned with who they’d rather ‘have a beer with’ than lead us into a new century or pandemic

If you (or anyone) can access it, Hillary had a great interview with the shock-jock Howard Stern ..maybe six months ago. He’s grown up some, and she ..she’s the same person who should now be campaigning for her second term

PS -- though I do not expect cooperation or courage, I’m asking our US detractors to admit who they voted for President in 2016? I voted for HRC (Bill’s wife) … and won’t hold my breath waiting for answers - but let’s call it an ‘ethics & honesty check’

@OwlInASack As the EU developed I’d brag about it to ‘conservatives’ I confronted in the day. Told them it gave me hope for humanity, and when the Euro replaced the Dollar in world affairs … we could only wish to have remained ‘united.’ Now, I’m glad I no longer correspond with them ...as I’d have been proven wrong

That’s quite telling to point out ‘who was cheering’ when Brexit and trump were ‘passed ..and barely elected’.. You describe the “racist, money’d, lying scum - and they won.” That’s definitely ‘them’ over here. Big money has used white trash to loot our nation!

@jorj You mean the vote you tossed … or the vote you should have cast … had you the guts, intelligence or integrity to defend it? You’d never in ..ten thousand years live up to the level of competence and success ‘my pick’ had.. But you definitely show the level of weakness & contempt of those going after the softest target.

Defend? Defend what? You’re the one in need of defending your mistake - my decision should be our President. But thanks for admitting (below) to whom you tossed your vote in 16 … that shows far more courage than most having done the same..

@jorj LYAO? … then why does your block-post reflect ..pounding out an angry, confused, reactive response

‘Voting for someone who best reflects you’ is proof you don’t play well with others.. If you’ve yet to recognize our binary democracy ..you’ve not paid as close attention as thunk. Those having tossed their vote toward jill stein are the “the American left wing” … not the bulk of US citizens having cast more votes for Hillary R. Clinton than any other candidate!

While HRC was pushing out in the States she’d need Senators and House Reps in order to win back Congress & accomplish anything … fools & purists were scouring russian propaganda online for ‘reasons’ to abandon her. Sure, most thought she’d simply win - and didn’t want to give her any more momentum … others, weren’t about to vote for a strong, successful, brilliant woman..

HRC kept the DNC alive … it was broke. I know the weak & fearful look hard for a big scary boogeyman to substantiate their cowardly behavior ... but HRC and the majority having voted for her weren’t it. Go fish ~

“Corporate Democrats,” an oxymoronic statement if I’ve ever heard one … you mean democratic candidates who - which in order to come close to competing with their Industrial financed Republican opponents - reluctantly accept ..maybe a quarter the donations corporate entities feed their Republican puppets .. to help fund the non-stop elections that exist in this bloated nation..? Aah, yes ...the soft, easy targets

Sure wish the blow-hard know-it-all fake-warriors constantly attacking the bulk of this nation would show some spine, courage ..even testosterone - and go after the real enemy of the nation. Cowards. Pitiful, worthless cowards

@jorj ...must be me..

Our System sifts out as Binary. Our ‘Founders’ realized the same, two centuries ago! Heck, there’s even a blank spot to write in yourself, doesn't mean you (or I) stand a chance..

I’d voted Green a couple of times ..decades ago; they were my kind of people! Who won? Evil, dressed as a Republican. I stopped that, pretty quick.

Without a search, and having heard it confirmed again last night (on real news), our FBI confirmed the russians interfered with the election of 2016 - with plans to do the same this year. Who are you listening to, ‘fox entertainment’?

@jorj So, you listen to fox propaganda? So does the idiot in our White House!

I well remember the years of The Fairness Doctrine, and miss them. Back then, there was no ‘taking sides.’ They could run editorials, but would have someone else (equally skilled) to rebut them. Not no more - thanks to the Reagan Republicans…

I also remember (the perks of aging) watching the media hold back ...as the propaganda sites did their worst.. Finally, the nation began to buy it! After the playing field tipped dangerously, and free speech (within a dictatorship) might be lost - the mainstream media finally began to call out the hideous abuses of the Republican party - if funded by Industrialists like the Koch Bros.

…man.. ..I’ve tried, likely far more than most.. But facts, history, logic or reality are not what you want.. Gonna have to stop wasting time here; there are those who’ve come to trust my having paid attention, in ‘real life,’ and they seem a better prospect than bringing you up to speed

@jorj Your Republicans killed The Fairness Doctrine, why? Your Republicans (with Industrialist Dollars) brought the AM radios stations and filled them with Hate Jocks, why? Your Republicans are backed by an entire television network openly devoted to promoting them and their lies, why? Your Republicans in the US Senate ignore/d Senate Rules and protocol, why? Your Republican ‘president’ claims the mainstream media is ‘the enemy of the people,’ why?

I know ….you no longer claim to be a Republican … yet attempt to further their causes at every turn. Why? Can you live on their crumbs?

I think you work, hard. But while working, listen to too much wrong-wing radio.. You know someone’s profiting far more from your efforts, but the easiest target are those darn Democrats (cuz that’s what FOX says)! Can’t be the Republicans - cuz look how much power they’ve got -- so they must be right! Right..?

@jorj ...you’ve got it bad, man.. But it seems no matter how bad it gets, you can always blame “the left wing.” Even now, with them barely hanging on.. ..out of the presidency for nearly four years, the Senate for about six ..and you’re still blaming Democrats … as you work harder for less..

As I’ve suggested to others, why don’t you take on the real power, the real villains? …not the party that polices & punishes itself to death. Is it easier, or more ‘fun’ to attack those less willing to fight back? Are you afraid of the Republicans? I think you are..

@jorj So, you “Represent liberal policy?” ...yur all over the place. Sounds like a ‘Libertarian,’ once Republicans, left for some reason (feel free to give yours), tried to start a 3rd party, found they were just tossing their votes. Now, they either vote openly for creeps like trump, or for another toss-away ..eighth party candidate - then claim ‘The Democrats made them!’

Our political system breaks down as two party choices. In the party I party with, ‘you’ are free to run! If not, you’re free to campaign for your favorite in the Primary. Once the majority within the party have chosen a candidate - that’s as good as it gets.

Anything short of voting for the Democratic Candidate hands it to the ugly Republicans. It’s that simple.

@jorj You’d cut off your ..nose to spite your face..? How’s that good for you? How does that make the world better, or safer? As for ‘driving me crazy,’ as mentioned ..I’m actually doing quite well. Kids, too. Hell, another generation of this and we’ll be Republicans

You’re really letting trump off.. He’s definitely racist, sexist, elitist, and a narcissist. Yes, he’s a hollow huckster, too, but his damage is caused by handing control of our government to those who’d like to kill us. Like hitler, you wouldn’t see trump touring a death camp, too squeamish - but he’d hire the guys who love that kind of thing…

Claiming to have flipped sides because Bernie didn’t win in 16 doesn't jive with the litany of extremist BS you’re tossing.. WWBD? (what would Bernie do). What he (eventually) did, and has done again - back the candidate necessary to move forward his ultimate agenda - period

PBS’s NewsHour indepth report on the ‘allegations’ against Joe cleared up my concerns. As did this

Again, how can a guy falling over himself to damage Democrats claim to have ‘been one.’ Though …. I’d first registered Republican ..standing alongside one, my Dad. That lasted till Reagan got elected … though my first vote was for J.E. (just call me Jimmy) Carter. My home state had some sane Republicans ..back in the day. Not no more..

You ask for ‘real arguments.’ How about a realistic description of historical facts as lived and witnessed by me? You seem to crave ‘arguments.’ I crave sanity. I’ve known for the vast majority of my life that as an Atheist ..I was going to have to accept all kinds of shit that’s just plain wrong. So I try.. And in doing so, I’m forced to move at the speed of my nation.

You, along with a number of ..I won’t say it.. self-ascribed Agnostics & Atheists have me doing some serious reevaluating of just ‘who shakes out as such,’ and ‘why’? There appears to be a persistent number of folks around here incapable of getting along with others.. Does that represent a significant number of those I’ve ..until recently, been proud to call ‘fellow Atheists?’

Is there a substantial contingent incapable of understanding or accepting the fact we live in a nation that limits our ability to progress at the rate we’d like …. thus have become Monkey Wrenchers..? They’ve so little to lose their morbid entertainment’s become watching others burn?

I get a lot of shit for supporting ‘my guy Biden.’ Guess what -- ‘my guy’ didn’t run… My first choice from the massive pack didn’t move ahead.. But the mass of the people have spoken - and continue to speak - and have decided Joe Biden's their choice. Am I simply that much faster than those apparently incapable of keeping up with the bus..?

Your demand for purity or punishment sounds quite biblical ... sure you’re at the right place? ..I do appreciate some personal history though, thanks for sharing that.

@jorj You’d hold one party to a standard the other totally ignores? Your purity requirements, one-sided accusations, and unwillingness to go after real power are proof of your Republican fear, envy, association, or loyalty … so you tell me - what are you?

In this day & age - if you go after one party - you’re supporting the other. It’s that simple.

And don’t expect me to ‘defend’ the system, I didn’t come up with it, but I am forced to work within it, or drop out, as you have…

I've blocked four people, and I don't know if they were all Trump voters, but some probably were. This is new for me, blocking people, but I'm trying to not get caught up in conversations that are a waste of my time.