I’m struggling with the statement people make when they say they are Free Thinkers, Critical Thinkers, Atheist, Humanist, Secularist, and Skeptics, and then they say in the next sentence that they are spiritual!
First lets get some Websters definitions.
Free Thinkers: a person who rejects accepted opinions, especially those concerning religious belief.
Critical Thinkers: Being inherently inquisitive and interested in the world and people around you is a hallmark of leaders who are critical thinkers. Instead of taking everything at face value, a curious person will wonder why something is the way it is.
Atheist: a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.
Humanist: an advocate or follower of the principles of humanism. "efforts by secular humanists to oppose creationists"
Secularist: a person who advocates separation of the state from religious institutions. "secularists wanted religious reform as the first step to a secular society"
Skeptics: a person inclined to question or doubt accepted opinions.
And then there is “spiritual”
spiritual: relating to or affecting the human spirit or soul as opposed to material or physical things.
"I'm responsible for his spiritual welfare"
Now lets travel back in time to the time when our ancestors lived in the bush and were hunters and gathers. We have evidence of these creatures because of fossils and remains found between four and seven million years ago. These creatures would run when they heard a noise in the tall grass, they would believe it was a lion. If they were wrong they just got some exercise, but if ignored it and it was a lion it could cost them their lives. They learned there was a cause and effect to most things. They learned the seasons and how they helped them to anticipate the weather. Then they noticed when one of their group died they no longer responded and they had to bury the dead. They surmised that something had left the person and so they assigned that something to be a spirit. Every civilization known to man has had a believe in some sort of spirit leaving the body at death. This belief goes back as far as man does because that’s were the belief came from.
Now we talk about the good spirit and the bad spirit!
My son in-law’s mother died from brain cancer and as the cancer progressed she became cruel and mean to her spouse, children, siblings, parents, and everyone else she came in contact with. Before she was sick she was the most caring sweet person anyone had ever known! The brain and the mind are one in the same and people want to believe that the mind somehow lives on after death through this “spiritual” connection!
I would love to see any evidence of “spiritual” ! Its like a magic rabbits foot in your pocket! And it does as much good!
Why the 'struggle'? Live and let die, it's called Evolution. I've seen so many nut jobs on this platform trying to lable people like candy jars and give words more meanings than the dictionary can handle! If people can't accept the meaning of definitions like 'Atheist, Agnostic, Freethinker, Spiritual' then I suppose they have a few options:
I’ve been spiritual in the past, but my late father was so spiritual that it wrecked his liver and led to his death. I gave up spirits years ago. Thank god!
Words don't matter, though when we agree on meanings it certainly makes it easier to communicate. For me it cuts through the chaff to just remember: no matter how they define themselves - if they believe in the supernatural? They are fools.
I consider spiritual to be a word people use to describe a purely human condition and which is actually just an emotional state of our mind when we feel a close connection to something or someone. There are no such entities as “spirits”, either good or bad, they are purely a manifestation of our imaginations based on superstition. Nobody who really considers themselves any of the long list you named can also believe in the spirit world because that would be illogical and contradictory, in my opinion.
It is in fact puzzling how so many atheists insist that spirituality is not necessarily connected to religious or other supernatural beliefs. I know a few who explain that the source of their spirituality is Nature. Would it not be helpful to check if, in some cases, the puzzle could be solved if it were possible to replace spirituality with a specific branch of philosophy ?
Lotta stuff there Ex. I like it though, considering it's grounded in isms and labels.
In my way of thinking real individuals dwell intellectually beyond labels. Not to say they won't BE labeled at any time they agree with this or that group/s position on 'issues'. As often as not, an individual will support a position advocated by groups for reasons that differ from theirs. Nevertheless, they'll find themselves labeled as herd members until the next issue comes along and they part ways with those who thought them ideological comrades.
Individual thinkers find themselves among many divergent groups if they weigh issues at hand on the basis of personal reasoning. If it doesn't happen, they'd better re-check their 'individuality'... Labels and 'identities' are for the intellectually lazy and those who lack confidence in their own gifts of discernment ability. If one is in need of an identity with one or more groups to feel comfortable to themselves they are still dependent; still addicted to the notion that validity requires some sort of group licensing for legitimacy; that one or more others possess superior qualities of reason.
We're gifted as humans with faculties that are a bit more and less, as there is no such thing in Nature as equality. Our distinctly human abilities are not vastly different and unfortunately we are taught the opposite before those abilities reach fruition.
If you can escape the penchant for thinking of yourself in group and group identity terms it is a healthy first step toward affirmation of Nature and our nature.
Woo is woo, magic is magic and it's all bullshit.
In my experience there is equal evidence for spirit as there is for god(s) that being sweet F.A.
I have no time the apologist for this nonsense, it would by hypocritical of me to do so
And another thing "god" and "spirit" have in common is the enormous diversity of meaning people bring to such words. Conclusions involving such poorly defined terms is pointless.
@MarkWD The only definition of spirit, that I know of, that does not connote the supernatural is when it is used as a euphemism for alcohol.
God linguistically too by definition includes a supernatural connotation.
Since there is zero evidence for the supernatural, which itself by definition of the word is a logical impossibility I think my point stands.
i gave you a like on principle, but imo "spirit" might easily also be contemplated as that thing you do to a room without realizing it maybe, or even you might "take the temperature" of a room, kinda thing? When you get home tonight tell the kids theyre all going to Disneyland tomorrow or whatever, and see what happens! thats "spiritual" imo
My dad made rabbit fur gloves turning he skins inside out and sewing up fingers rubbing or holding a small mammal or doll in our arms enables the human nurturing response...we are hard wired to relax or lactate caring for others
Ok!!! I can see what some people are meaning when they say that they are spiritual.
I was just asking, not criticizing the people who were saying it anyway. I was trying to understand how some people could mix being Atheist, Humanist, Secularist, and Skeptics.
Thanks for helping me understand how some people interpret the label spiritual.
I agree with you on this. Either there are metaphysical properties or there are not. Generally you expect people who call themselves these things to be of the mindset that if something is real, we can test and measure it.
Truthfully, I’m an agnostic atheist in a literal god but find myself a religious naturalist, which just means I can use any religious word, like god, spiritual, religion, etc, as long as it’s metaphorical because there is not a shred of evidence for any of it in reality.
I’m an individual who naturally questions the nature of everything that man has touched.
And from that I cannot be religious, belong to any political party, accept that written history is factual and the science behind our future as well.
I say this because of the origin of any religion has been morphed and distorted to suit the ruling class and their livelihoods.
Political parties are just another instrument of the ruling class that gives us a false sense of freedom and pits us against each other so that we will naturally assume that our party is protecting us.
Written history just like religion has been distorted to suit the means of the ruling class. Case in point these statues that are being torn down here in America are of men who were either participating in the enslavement or destruction of those for whom they were conditioned to believe weren’t human.
And for generations we were through our written history conditioned to believe that they were great men with great cause and purpose.
And because of the others have influenced everything and everyone I can’t believe everything that is proposed about our futures even from the scientific community.
Because I can’t ignore the fact that they are also humans who are motivated by pride, greed, and the desire to become the ones who hold all of the knowledge but just like the church and governments they will give us only the information that empowers them and their final objectives.
Spiritual is a very tricky word. People assume it means not religious, but somehow connected to nature and the universe, but it can be interpreted in other ways; certainly in the UK people have been given the option of describing themselves as 'spiritual' in surveys that have then lumped them into a larger 'religious' category, which has then been used to ague for things such as a greater number of religious schools.
I have a bigger problem with those who claim to be free thinkers but accept regressive leftist group-think.
You misspelled "ridiculous rightist" there.
@itsmedammit Them also, but this site is infected with leftists.
@PBuck0145 Infected with, or predictably frequented by?
@JeffMurray Dominated by?
@PBuck0145 I don't think that's much better for you. It still points to the fact that there are more progressive liberal people that aren't shackled by magical thought without the negative connotation you initially placed on them with the use of the word 'infected'.
@JeffMurray You are incorrectly (IMHO) implying that regressive leftism is not a religion or substitute.
@PBuck0145 I just don't think there's a high proportion of them compared to progressive liberals. (I don't think I'd agree that there is any magical think to them that it would constitute a substitute for religious beliefs, either.)
I mean, someone posted a link the other day asking why atheists are afraid to make fun of Islam, and no one seemed scared to join in the fun posting memes and such. If this site was dominated by those unwilling to challenge Islam, I'm not sure how that would happen. There may be a higher proportion in liberal circles that are not primarily atheist and/or agnostic, but not here.
Etymology of spirit is like biblical word ruach which is for breath or a force like breath.
What motivates a person to breath or gives them breath?
spir·it
/ˈspirit/
Learn to pronounce
Origin
Middle English: from Anglo-Norman French, from Latin spiritus ‘breath, spirit’, from spirare ‘breathe’.
It's the same in Greek, the language of the NT. Pneuma means wind or breath and is used of the Spirit of God.
The notion of the immortality of the soul or the spirit is very hard to sustain for any agnostic or atheist. Indeed, the binary of body and soul is problematic, so I agree with this post.
@Doubting Kinetic energy is part of what the old language is talking about. Ruach is a force. Breath has kinetic energy. Breath is used as the force of words.
"God" is Germanic origin coming form meaning "to call or invoke".
John 1:14. ...the word become flesh. The FORCES of creation are kinetic energy related.
Modern christianity does not have the kinetic energy understanding of the origional language AND with paganism conflated with Judaism the word spirit often is interchanged with the word ghost.
Ghost being used with original meanings in my opinion is not correct because ghost and original meanings of spirit are completely different things.
@Doubting From previous conversations
Word 7 replied Apr 17, 2020 1
From previous conversations God of biblical text is based on "ruach". ruach is a force. things in motion have kinetic energy. Spirit used in english does not very well explain or transfer the original biblical god thingie. if you study an english bible and replace "spirit" with kinetic energy or force with communication then you might could better understand the biblical God thingie.
Such from John 1:1 In the beginning was the word, the word was with God and was God. John 1:14 ... the word (logos) become flesh. To translate the greek "logos" into english as simply "word" is problematic. John 10:34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are "gods"'?
The argument as written according to what Jesus character said is that "the people are the Gods that because of them speaking, they spoke (speaking is force of air molecules leaving lungs with an intellagable pattern) ... those people of the old testiment spoke Jesus Character into existance. John 1:14 ... logos (thought word capabilities/ cognition) become flesh. People by kinetic energy chemical reaction "thought" their way into existence?
DNA can be explained as being a form of intelligence.
Son of man is an expression in the sayings of Jesus in Christian writings,including the Gospels, the Acts of the Apostles and the Book of Revelation. The meaning of the expression is controversial. Interpretation of the use of "the Son of man" in the New Testament has remained challenging and after 150 years of debate no consensus on the issue has emerged among scholars.[1][2]
The expression "the Son of man" occurs 81 times in the Greek text of the four Canonical gospels, and is used only in the sayings of Jesus.[3] The Hebrew expression "son of man" (בן–אדם i.e. ben-'adam) also appears in the Torah over a hundred times.[4] wikipedia
KEEP IT SIMPLE "son of man" Jesus character is saying he is a product or an offspring of MANKIND, PEOPLE of the old testiment times.
Jesus style god a creation, a product of the "people" that are Gods.
Word 7 replied Apr 17, 2020 0
From previous conversations As I purpose after giving people a better understanding of Jesus character, the true debate of a Jesus style God would be: Can the thoughts and words spoken by people create such as Jesus Character in person?
Word 7 replied Apr 17, 2020 edited 0
From previous conversations I am not trying to proselytize this book, but just using it to show that scholars find over 400 old testiment writings and sayings that then made Jesus Character. Then I compare the old testament to the movie "Stranger than Fiction" (2006) with actor Will Ferrell.
In the movie, the author has control over the actor. This is something simular to how the Old testiment "controlled" Jesus character that was not of "free Will". John 5:19 Jesus gave them this answer: "Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.
414 passages from the Old Testament are given and discussed in the light of fulfillment in Jesus, the Messiah. The purpose of this book is to honor God Triune, to encourage His people, and to encourage unbelievers to become believers in the Lord Jesus Christ. In the words of the Apostle John, “These are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in His name” (John 20:31). The Foreword was written by Dr. John D. Morris, President, Institute for Creation Research, Dallas, Texas USA. He says: "Christians rightly consider fulfilled prophecy to be one of the most important evidences that Scripture is inspired by an all-knowing God. How else could such detailed information be written centuries before it came to pass? Statistically, the odds for one such fulfilled prophecy would be hard to overcome, but there are hundreds of specific, detailed prophecies recorded in Scripture. Combining the probability from each prophecy shows that it could not happen by mere chance. Yet they did all come true, just as predicted. Together they erect a strong testimony to the Christian of an omnipotent Author and an impassable barrier to the skeptic who would discount the Bible’s teaching. To claim that mere humans could write such a book is to espouse incredulity." [amazon.com]
Stranger than fiction (2006)
Just my 2 cents worth: I do not see "awe of the universe" as a defination of spirituality but it might be a reason or motivation that is someones spirituality.
So for example: I meet Bob, he says he is spiritual. I ask Bob what is your spirituality motivation? He says, "The awe of the universe".
I met Sue and say, "How do you do?" She says she does things spiritually. She says she is constantly motivated to begin her day with her morning jog and she runs through the day and her life full of energy and wonderful interactions with people.
So, my thought is that to specify as in old defination it is related to religion, religion was the motivator or related to some choice of a person to be motivated by awe in some new defination would not serve a general definition for understanding what spirituality could mean in a general sense as to leave open the causation "religion " or "awe" for a person's choice to be motivated.
"We are what we are and what WE choose to be even though there are those who elect to label us to suit their own means and ends,therefore WE must be true to ourselves." William Anthony, Circa 2019."
" Amour vincit Omnia," "Love conquers All," Roman Philosopher, Circa 2nd. Century, B.C.E.
"To conquer Death, you ONLY have to die." " Jesus Christ Superstar, the musical," Circa 1970's,
" A Spirit, a beverage containing alcohol which has a tendency, which when consumed, can lead to drunkness, etc." William Anthony, Circa 2018.
Spiritual but not religious.
What I think you are attempting to do is keep religion with the word spiritual. By history and majority, spiritual has its connection with the word religion. So, for most person these words are like connotation to each other.
Connitation - an idea or feeling that a word invokes in addition to its literal or primary meaning.
By saying religious a lot of people think spiritual or to say "I am spiritual" a lot of people imply the connotation of religious.
This is where as I have suggested that spiritual and spirituality be defined for what they mean without the causation included in the definition.
Religion is someones motivation. Or to say someone is religiously spiritual. Someone might be considered naturally spiritual in that nature and its awe is what moves them, not religious reasons. So, to define spirit, spiritual, spirituality as being related to motives and motivations it is leaving the cause open for anyone or a group to define what motivates them.