18 20

The antagonism to science, as it's ever increasing in our country, is taking us on a path to destruction. How do you get people to embrace that which they don't understand without calling it religion and making the cornerstone faith, which is antithetical to science itself?

"I think the roots of this antagonism to science run very deep. They're ancient. We see them in Genesis, this first story, this founding myth of ours, in which the first humans are doomed and cursed eternally for asking a question, for partaking of the fruit of the "Tree of Knowledge". It's puzzling that Eden is synonymous with paradise when, if you think about it at all, it's more like a maximum-security prison with twenty-four hour surveillance. It's a horrible place. Adam and Eve have no childhood. They awaken full-grown. What is a human being without a childhood? Our long childhood is a critical feature of our species. It differentiates us, to a degree, from most other species. We take a longer time to mature. We depend upon these formative years and the social fabric to learn many of the things we need to know."

Ann Druyan interviewed by the Committee for Skeptical Inquiry. — "Ann Druyan Talks About Science, Religion, Wonder, Awe … and Carl Sagan". Skeptical Inquirer 27 (6). November–December 2003.

Amzungu 8 Aug 20

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The older I get the less time I have left for bullshit in my life! I am down to only 1-2 people in my life that even acknowledge Trump as a legitimate POTUS. I have religious friends and neighbors but I hold them at arms length because of this. When I see their posts on Facebook I sometimes cringe.

What I don't get is that I lost a close friend to QANON. We grew up together with 99% like mind on events and issues. Then when Trump came to town... He started buying into every conspiracy theory out there. We never landed on the moon, 9/11 was a hoax, jetliners are spraying chemicals, child porn and trafficking at pizza parlors, etc. I don't know how his mind was so weak to believe all this trash. My only though was he was in a car accident and was on pain killers and trapped at home so he watched YouTube a lot. The strange thing is... He looks at ME like I am the crazy one because I am not "enlightened." He's not really religious but his mind bought into every stupid rumor out there.

It's a weird time out there!


I think you have to make the facts and scientific reality more "ancient" to them than their bible. In other words...

They believe the bible is credible because its . It's kind of like your grandma telling you a story they fully believe in compared to a child. You're more likely to believe the older person.

The old person may have dementia... they may be okay with being racist... who knows... but they're old and we're taught to respect that.

My thing is that I believe we attack the bible sometimes too hard which causes a reaction. But... do they truly feel connected to the bible? Or is there some underlying idea that they're connected to that they feel is under assault when the bible is attacked?

I personally think it's all about the origin story. It's about where people believe they came from and were they can believe they're going. The bible is what tells them this so if we don't have better answers they don't want to hear it. And because their answers from the bible are romantic in nature our answers, being the opposite, are repulsive to them.

If you talk to them about how they came from "the stars" and that our closes star is our creator and it gave us all the elements on the periodic table through fusion and fission and it continuously gives us life by radiating energy you may be able to give it to them in an edible form. But the key is that everything we eat, the more healthy it is the worst it seems to taste while the worst stuff is the sweetest. So the lies are the sweetest. Christianity will give you mental diabetes but in reality it causes millions to die. They just ignore that part. They ignore the content or the health risks and consequences because they think they're going to heaven with streets of gold and pearly gates, balanced on some cloud.

So even though the information is correct and scientific, it has to be -coated in a way they can actually swallow.


Bible is maybe 10% historically and geographically accurate...? And that is "the book of truth"?
But science and reasoning has to be 100% correct, all of the time and never be wrong or unsure...

See what I mean Vern?

twill Level 7 Aug 20, 2020

Science is not always right but what separates it from superstition and religion is that Scientists try again and again to prove Scientific Thearys are wrong. This is how they search for the Truth. This is why we can trust them

Yes, I do believe I do.

@dermot235 Which is, sadly, what anti-science zealots use against it. Religion is always certain. That's comforting. Science is always questioning, coming closer and closer, but can never say with absolute certainty that it has the truth; only a better hypothesis than before. These days, that's derided as "flip-flopping".


There is a general anti-intellectualism trend that has been growing for some time.

Sad, but oh so true. Sigh.

@K9Kohle789 Could be!

@Amzungu I echo the "sigh." Sigh.


What really gets me is this growing antagonism is spreading via - computers, cell phones and other highly technical devised created by scientists.

Right? A bit incongruent, isn't it?


We don't need no stinking 17 year old quote to know this country is fucked up with trump, most republitards and religious fanatics of all kind. Let's start by expectorating the turd and regaining the senate from republitards.

This trend was well gaining traction long before Trump landed in office. Though his anti-vax, anti-fact, anti-science, and anti-anything resembling the reason or logic has certainly increased the speed at which it has taken hold.


I do not think it is an opposition to science per se, rather than an opposition to science that clashes with what they want to do/think. For example, a Christian may argue with you online about evolution. They will have no trouble with Ohms theorem, Faraday's laws, or even Einstien`s as means of communication that makes the computer go.
All the gas laws, metallurgy, etc. that make their car run will similarly be acceptable. But if a scientist says that their car is burning too much fuel and contributing to climate change? Then that science is wrong.
Rather like a smoker that convinces themselves that its not harmful

I don't think it is secularists that still promote geocentrism . . .


@FearlessFly Ah yes the Copernican revolution, so typical of the gulf between faith and reason. Firstly because heliocentrism is not self-evident. Just like the dog chasing a squirrel around a tree, one can say that the squirrel orbits the dog just as easily as vice versa. It also gave us our scientific martyr. The major point is that both systems worked it's just that Ptolemy's geocentric model was a pig's ear of a system, whereas the Copernican viewpoint best described the heavens.
It is that word "best" that so many theists have a problem with. All scientific law and theory are based upon a qualitative judgement, which theists wrongly take to mean subjective or partially subjective. "If evolution is only a theory then why cannot creationism be accepted as such?" Unlike scripture which is supposed to be immutable (although one would hardly think so considering all the theological arguments over the centuries), science is more akin to a chess opening which states that this is the best move until someone comes up with a better one. Theists only see the fact that it can be changed or amended, they fail to see the immense amount of work that brought us to this point. And that it was done from a pure secularist standpoint not to piss them off but because their starting point is irrelevant.
If the bible said that the earth rested on a giant turtle as one other religion does. Then there would be some professor in somewhere like Bosman Montana, claiming to have "proof" that it was true. Like a bad detective, they have their culprit now all they have to do is prove that he did it.


A lot of junk 'scientism' infects the public mind masquerading as science and holding itself to be 'settled' and therefore infallible and unquestionable; differing little from theological orthodoxies. Science was born LONG before the 600 year old 'scientific method'. It was and remains an evolving conceptual toolbox that owes it's very existence to human reasoning.

Popes of science have always appointed themselves to self-aggrandizing 'charge' of defining what is and isn't good science. They are throughout history, eventually proven wrong not by their 'faithful' but by original, non-conventional thinking pioneers.

For all of our fascinating technological accomplishments, we still haven't changed that fact.


Having encountered geo-centrists, I ask them to explain Foucaults' pendulum and the phases of Venus as documented by Galileo.


Reading the bible cover to cover made me stop being a christian. You can lead a theist to reason, but you can't make him/her think.


Most theists do not even know their own religion well. They know what they have been told. They rarely read it thoughtfully and analytically.

Ain't that the truth!


A huge part of the problem is that the modern sciences of advertising and propaganda have made huge strides in manipulating people. And there are religions, politicians, and industries who don't give a crap about anything but their own profits. Lead paint/gas and cigarettes were where these techniques came into full flower and successfully sowed doubt about well established science for decades so they could continue to market their toxic products. Now we are seeing the same techniques used to sow doubt about global warming with great effect. And sadly in politics and religion as well. Not sure what the solution is, but reinstating the Fairness Doctrine would be a good start.

The amount of manipulation the average human is subjected to on a daily basis, via all the things you mentioned, is absolutely mind blowing. It's a bit amazing that we are capable of any independent thought at all. I don't know what the solution is, either, but I would like to see a whole helluva lot more accountability by those tasked with pulling the strings.


Very good post.... thanks! Only, if you consider the mythology any literal interpretation of the creation story is dodgy.

Yet every culture has one. A creation myth, I mean, and most hold as firmly to it as Christians do.


What is a human without a childhood? What is the sound of one hand clapping?


Very upsetting trend

bobwjr Level 10 Aug 20, 2020

the unexplained phenomena of the ancients' world supposed/relied on god stories. as science became capable of supplanting those old stories with facts, it was seen as an affront to god power, to god magic. humanity has yet to shed itself of the notion that the god stories are to be protected lest the pestilence befall us.

Very well said! We humans sure are a stubborn ass lot.

@Amzungu and scared.

@hankster Yes, that, too!


I have often asked creationists if they actually believe the story of Adam & Eve...that God created Adam as a fully adult man, and then when he slept took a rib from him and created Eve, a fully adult woman. They invariably say yes, they believe everything implicitly because it’s the direct word of god written in the scriptures. I look at them and know that there is no point whatsoever in trying to convince them of any alternative scientific possibility to man’s existence..the indoctrination runs way too deep.

Better yet, try to get them to explain Chapter 1. It really is my favorite part of the whole book. Everything is created, including men and women and this is done in 6 DAYS!!! Great story.
But Chapter 2 is were things go awry and get confusing. More waters or mist appear and the mud man and rib woman appear on the scene. The woman, who btw, ends up being blamed for every damn thing that goes wrong with Adam's sorry ass life. To be honest I have not read much in between. I fast forwarded to Revelations. 🙂

Well... as a fetus develops it goes through stages where we all are females and only some end up as male based upon genetics and exposure to hormones.

@floWteiuQ There is absolutely no point in mentioning any of this to these bible believers ...I never did believe in hitting my head against a brick wall!

@silverotter11 Perhaps that is one of the root causes of misogyny.

@Marionville I keep the imaginary brick in my back pocket for special occasions. 🙂

@silverotter11 If only they could keep their imaginary god In the same place, instead of boring us to tears by talking about him like he was real and actually in the room with us!

@MizJ It certainly is. Every monotheistic religion tends to be misogynist.


Your post points up the issues of the willfully ignorant and of those who have been brain-damaged by their brain-damaged parents.

Yes, and unfortunately they are many.

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