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Should states mandate dedicated anti-fascist/theocracy & anti-white supremacy curriculums in k-12 public schools and similar guidelines for children's media?

Is Anti-fascism for kids part of the solution?

  • 14 votes
  • 4 votes
domos 6 Jan 16
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0

I'm not in favor of indoctrinating anybody in anything. However, the public schools could teach more in the way of critical thinking skills.

While I understand your sentiment I think this is never been a reality for the human species.

Any form of education will always have an element of indoctrination. The best we can do is to mitigate that element of intoxination to only what is necessary... and make its implementation as rigorously accountable and transparent as possible.

Determining that systems of fascism or oppression are bad is a function of values not reasoning. There are clearly plenty ways to reason and justify extreme evil as our nation has seen in these last few weeks and humanity is proven time and time again.

If we expect the evil that we are currently experiencing to be mitigated in future generations we have to be upfront that it is an explicit goal of ours to indoctrinate our children to perceive these evils as evils and to be extremely skeptical of systems that implement any aspect of such evil.

1

I'd be concerned that many schools would equate fascism with anything that is deemed "unamerican" and then they would use it to teach anti-socialism more so than they already do.

2

I have a problem with explicit propaganda even though I am anti Fascist myself. As evil as the USSR was, particularly the Stalin era, the red scare and McCarthyism caused damage all their own. I'm definitely with powder; teach how to think not what to think.

The United States has tried this in the past. It was generally referred to as liberal arts curriculum and science-based education... Look at what the far right did to that throughout our history.

there is always going to be an element of indoctrination in any application of education. I for one think we can be a lot better at being transparent and honest about those elements. At least give future generations formal acknowledgment about decisions of censorship before their educational careers is over...

When we tell children that Nazis are bad, we are telling them what to think. When we tell children that the Confederacy were terrorists and traditionists, we are telling them what to think. Not merely how.

I'm not sure how this would be different.

@domos I think liberal arts and science has largely won over unexamined moralizing. Adopting the tactics of the far right is surrendering to ignorance. "Nazis are bad, m'kay" is no different than " witches are bad" to a child too young to understand. This isn't a battle to be won in a day or sadly even many generations. And yet it moves.

1

Just teach them critical thinking, peer group pressure and repetitive messaging. Teach them about doctrine and indoctrination. Children under 8 should learn to read and write..........but do 99% art: music, language, drawing and play. Let kids be kids. Critical thinking is the key. Indoctrination is the formal instruction (school) into a doctrine; a belief. No-one should be indoctrinated unwillingly.
If you do teach about fascism ie a marriage between government and corporations to the detriment of the people.................at least you can do daily field excursions 😉 .

PS let us know how your poll results turn out. I put one up regarding deprogramming camps for Trumpies, and yours is about programming camps for kiddies.
It's way over due there was a Children's Lives Matter movement where they are afforded the same rights as adults. Human rights.

Are you implying that they should not explicitly be taught about white supremacy and theocracy of America's history and heritage?

I'm not sure how that level of vagueness can be constructive given how the lack of directly educating citizens as to those demons of our past is let us to our current situation.

@domos Sure but after they are taught about critical thinking. History is full of bias and does not tell the complete story ie native Indian history of the colonisation of America is vastly different than "frontier settler" history. Critical thinking now is more important for this generation than ours because there is such an information overload thanks to the internet. So best to teach kiddies how to sort shit from clay imo.

Deep programming camps for Trump supporters... I've thought about that.

I think since TV and media is such a cultural educational institution for America, especially white America... It might be more effective to mandate public service announcements for half a decade at least that call out racism and fascism.

And of course, eliminate religious tax exemptions. They even developed religious network has historically been deeply supportive and networked with the white power movement. Part of the reasons were in this message because the communication and financial network of the white power movement is inseparable from that of the Christian evangelical community.

We need to get as much taxpayer money out of religious networks as possible.

If we remove direct taxpayer funds from these religious networks and maintain a consistent media campaign... it could have the same effects as deprogramming camps without the moral ethical and legal headaches that come with physical installations and re-education centers.

@domos the carrot is more effective than a stick so I agree with you. A public education program via free to air media is better than setting up compulsory camps.
The Vatican ie Roman Catholic Church should be treated as the foreign nation they are and taxed accordingly.

@powder one of the issues this idea of raises is how to tackle organizations like Fox news or the Sinclair broadcasting Network.

As far as I'm concerned, these organizations represent a dangerous evolution of media and technology. They allow private entities to literally weaponize and commodify mass societal destabilization.

If you have the money and a long enough timeline, you can basically pay for them to destabilize a target nation or even individual institutions by algorithmic use of misinformation.

I value the freedom of speech but these organizations need to be stopped for the sheer survival of our species. And if that means we need to accept more constraints on our freedom of speech, I think we're going to have to accept that trade off at.

Because our nation has not dealt with our historical normal right-wing extremism, we're going to have to implement some painful solutions. We may end up having to criminalize what is now normal legal operating procedure and norms for Fox news and even parts of the Republican party / machinery.

@domos I can't copy and paste here but look up the 14 characteristics of fascism written by Lawrence Britt in 2003. The problem is far deeper than the Trump phenomenon. Corporate control of media is what you are concerned about.
I do like irony and am Australian and we have given the world both extremes of the media spectrum; Rupert Murdock's media empire (incl Fox) on the one hand, with Julian Assange and wikileaks on the other. Sorry about that 😉

@powder I am not sure how those are polar extremes.

What Julian assange did is not more extreme than the Pentagon papers in American history.

Rupert Murdoch represents a near species level threat.
The more interconnected the human species become, the more any organization that has the potential and technological capability to operate like Murdoch's businesses... Needs to be scrutinized preemptively. media institutions should not be getting the benefit of the doubt anymore. They should be detailing and is scientific a manner as possible safeguards in their operation to preemptively mitigate their intentional or unintentional use in misinformation campaigns.

I agree with your sentiment. I just think that Murdoch's empire represents something that Julian assange cannot even be compared to

1

Anyone who thinks knows what the end result of fascism is, hell, we just saw it in action.

While I agree with the sentiment, this is not true given American history.

White Americans built an entire social culture around dismissing and ignoring literal daily norms of terrorism... A racialized fascist terrorism... And and that unfortunately blinded and numbed them to the madness that led to this last 4 years.

To be honest, practically none of Donald Trump's policies and actions are any worse than past presidents particularly in the Reagan era.

When if we are going to take the Democratic and accountable approach to education / indoctrination... We need to do it in a way that gives future generations to tools to be more cognizant and critical of The norms they participated. And also more willing to try out different solutions rather than maintain our politics of generational attrition.

not really, you saw the end of a populist leader. The military industrial complex and corporation influence on politicians/ government remain. As does an enemy (real or imagined), glorification of the military, rampant nationalism etc etc

@powder equating the end of Donald Trump's first presidential term as the end of a populist leader is problematic. That's like saying Hitler's first attempted coup was the end of him as a populist leader... Clearly it was not.

@domos what I mean is if you think Trump equates fascism in America ie get rid of Trump problem solved......your dreaming. The state apparatus is fascist (Australia not far behind) which it was way before Trump.

2

I would like to know exactly how that content would be handled, but it sure doesn't sound like a bad idea.
Many of our fathers and grandfathers traveled the globe to find and kill Nazis, now we just let them March down our streets or even right into the Capitol building without putting a bullet in their brains. It's very, very confusing to me and, if such things were possible, would be making all of our ancestors roll in their fucking graves. Ya know, except for the ancestors who were Nazis that is...

I've reflected about the implications of world war II a little these last few days. I think it might be accurate to reframe world war II as a competition between different versions of fascism. One in which white America set the narrative of Western dominance the Western world and one in which Germany did.

Yeah, Americans fought the Nazis but during and after the war they maintained and implemented a racialized form of fascism all the same.

That unfortunately made it easy to dismiss the normalized terrorism that is American history.

I think children need to be taught this explicitly. They need to be skilled in analyzing the dangers of this type of ambiguity and vagueness so that they cannot be easily manipulated in the future nor should their institutions and systems be easily manipulated as well.

@domos You'll never hear me make the argument that America is some amazing utopia. It's shit, and flawed as fuck, with tons of total fucking assholes, but you'll still need to come up with a really convincing argument that we're on equal footing with leaders that are OPENLY racist and systematically exterminate people based on arbitrary characteristics. (And yes, I do get the audacity of this argument given what a total fucking racist shitbag we currently have in office, but at least even he knows his racism is something to be ashamed of and tries to hide it with asinine statements like, "I'm the least racist person you've ever met." )

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