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I feel this is an important enough distinction, and relevant enough to socialism in general, to warrant a separate post.
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DonThiebaut 7 Aug 17
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Don't agree with this; capitalism is based on one fundamental principal and that is it is capital that reaps the rewards. Innovation and hard work are not rewarded unless it secures the necessary capital to back it, and even then it is the capital that takes the lion's share.
Socialism is a system where the state through taxes, limited and full ownership of businesses redistributes the rewards of capital to everyone through services and laws. In the socialist system hard work and innovation is rewarded, Scandinavian nations are an excellent example of this, despite high labour cost and high taxes they have some of the highest tech industries in the world.
Public ownership and worker co-ops can exist under capitalism but they find themselves under constant attack by capital. Whereas under the socialist system both can flourish and do as does private enterprise.
The capitalist system is under constant danger of turning in fascism or as it is also know corporatism, because it eventually concentrates capital and property into the hands of the few; those that had the capital that reaped most of the rewards.
Most western countries are a blend of the two systems even the US was until recently since it has a number of clearly socialist remnants now like public schools, the postal service, social security and other social safety nets.
There is one more difference in the two systems that is fundamental, that is in the main role of government in the capitalist system it is to protect capital from the people and serve the needs of capital and in socialism it is to protect the people from capital and serve the needs of the people.

1

Good points. Although I would have pointed out the ridiculousness of "negotiaiting for a fair wage". The magic of "surplus value" that is the backbone of all profit can only come from one place . . .

towkneed Level 7 Aug 18, 2018

I'll get to that, I'm sure. Clarifying the reason we were talking past each other can help get people to be more open to new ideas. Doesn't always work, but it's a good starting point.

2

An interesting comparison the last 120 years is "how many deaths have occurred through wars capitalism created to further its profits?"
I suggest far more than capitalism raised from poverty.

FrayedBear Level 9 Aug 17, 2018

That's not to mention the totally preventable deaths capitalism has caused by privatizing resources, to the exclusion of the needy. I try not to take it personally, but when someone says 'capitalism lifts people out of poverty' I can't help but think about how, while working full time, I still need government assistance to not starve. ?

I've looked for a site that has such info about the victims of capitalist wars. Do you know of one?

@Krish55 Not a specific one off the cuff, unfortunately. You can probably find studies if you take the time to do some hard research, but unless the exact number is critical for some reason, the general understanding is usually sufficient. I'll let you know if I come across anything, though.

@DonThiebaut Indeed that current hypocrisy painfully squeezes the testicles.

@DonThiebaut For example American style health systems vs. U.K., Canadian or Australian?

@FrayedBear Among other things, yes, healthcare is an excellent example. U.S. healthcare is horribly inaccessible, entirely due to being capitalist.

2

Wow! This is really good. Thanks.

kmdskit3 Level 8 Aug 17, 2018

Glad you like it! ?

3

Makes sense to me. Did the other person think so? Or keep arguing?

GreatNani Level 8 Aug 17, 2018

No reply yet. I've explained this a few times, and all too often get a refusal to see the nuance as my reward, but I'm hopeful that this individual will be more understanding. And, of course, it doesn't hurt to let other people know.

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