6 15

I’ll put this in other groups. I’m probably preaching to the choir here 🙄

By Rudy19629
Actions Follow Post Like
You must be a member of this group before commenting. Join Group

Post a comment Add Source Add Photo

Enjoy being online again!

Welcome to the community of good people who base their values on evidence and appreciate civil discourse - the social network you will enjoy.

Create your free account

6 comments

Feel free to reply to any comment by clicking the "Reply" button.

1

Who said government and politics are about doing the right thing? Maybe it is about talking the right thing but not about doing it.

St-Sinner Level 8 Sep 11, 2019
0

A generalization at best.

Bobby9 Level 8 Sep 11, 2019

Sort of like this comment, eh?

@Rudy1962 I don't see the similarity.

@Bobby9 your comment doesn’t offer specifics on why it is “a generalization at best”

@Rudy1962 I din't know a casual comment required back up. Can I see the rule?

However the obvious answer to your question is the writer assumes the other does not care, and that is a big assumption, AND not back up at all.

@Bobby9 never said a casual comment required a back up. I said it is also a generalization. Ok. People are ok with our county not providing healthcare to our citizens like other industrialized countries. People are ok with separating kids from their parents as a deterrent to coming here and seeking legal asylum, people who are ok with mass shootings...,Only conclusion is they don’t care.

@Rudy1962 Yes you did, quote "your comment doesn't offer specifics" specifics require back up. Stop the word games.

Who, besides you and generalists think people are OK with not providing healthcare? Actually nobody, and your statement "Only conclusion is they don't care" is your conclusion. Ever consider the reason is, people cannot agree on the method?

@Bobby9 lol. Saying a comment doesn’t offer specifics is the same as saying a comment requires a back up (I should have said specifics) Come on man! Plenty of people are fine with millions of people in this country not having healthcare, or we would have some type of universal healthcare like every other industrialized country. I’m so tired of this bullshit.

@Rudy1962 The fact that many don't have healt care does not even infer people don't care. The fact that you are tired of that fact also does not infer anyone does not care. That is my sole point. You are assuming, and certainly can't back up your assumption.

@Bobby9 we spend more on the military than the next ten countries combined. How many millions do we give to Israel everyday and they have Universal Healthcare. We have healthcare lobbyists that spend millions to fight us joining the rest of the industrialized world, in offering healthcare to every citizen, and not just use our citizens health as a form of lining the CEO’s and stock holders pockets. Definitely those getting rich off our broken healthcare system care more about their profits, than people who cannot receive care in the richest country in the world. Ok, maybe with some it isn’t that they don’t care. Maybe it is ignorance and indoctrination into the sick system. People keep talking about how universal healthcare would be too expensive. They also say they don’t want their taxes raised. They can’t seem to comprehend that if you pay more in taxes but it is less than what you give the bottom feeder healthcare industry, you do come out ahead. People rarely question our bloated military budget but always question paying for government healthcare. Medicaid and Medicare have much lower overhead than private insurance for obvious reasons. Technically you are right that I cannot get in the mind of people, but obviously we could provide decent healthcare to all our citizens and we don’t, so it is not a stretch to assume it is because people don’t care.

@Rudy1962 You now rightfully admit you are assuming. Your assumptions are worth as much as mine, nothing.

@Bobby9 Disagree. Not all assumptions are equal. But it is true I can’t get in people’s mind. The only two possibilities I can think of are that they don’t care or they are ignorant, probably willfully ignorant. Well it could be cognitive dissonance, but it’s splitting hairs how that is different than being willfully ignorant. This all reminds me of a saying, people arguing how we can’t have Universal Healthcare, “Don’t piss on my leg and tell me It’s raining”. But technically you are right, it is an assumption or an educated guess, so you win. Congratulations

As an expression of reality, of course it is. But then how do you adequately express the complexity of the reality in a meme? All memes are generalization at best.

But as an expression of the author's emotions, it does its job.

All memes are slogans. All slogans are generalization.

@Bobby9 I’ve changed my answer. I’m now saying I made a presumption and not an assumption:

Assume is typically used in situations where someone takes something as the truth with a very low level of certainty or with no proof at all. Presume usually involves a higher level of certainty and is used in situations where someone makes an educated guess based on reasonable proof or evidence.

@Rudy1962 Not a question of winning. Since I don't know you or what you really are, I have no interest in winning anythng with you. The point is I don't agree with your assumption. The cost of health care is not related to caring, it is much more complicated than that, and the method of funding that cost is even more complicated.

@Bobby9 Insurance companies make it complicated because that works in their interest. I deal with those bottom feeders all the time trying to get reimbursement

@Bobby9

The current power structure where it creates hyper-concentration of wealth and power in the hands of a very small number of individuals is both complex AND simple.

The complexity of it does not nullify the culpability of the few who immensely benefit out of the system at the expense of dire misery of immense number of people.

Anger is a justified response to the situation. It ain't a solution, but it is a reasonable response. And perhaps it can fertilize action that leads to some solutions.

@AtheistReader Conspiracy theories are virtually always wrong. If things aren't going well for you, it is probably your fault.

@Bobby9 Ok. I don't think there is (or ever was) an active "conspiracy" to create a horribly imbalanced power and wealth. smile001.gif It simply exists

That still doesn't expiate the culpability of those who benefit from it at the expense of others.

And one of the way to perpetuate this charade is to have people believe in the myth that the poor deserves to be poor, because "it is probably your fault." Now that is a generalization, in that it is a slogan and a myth. smile001.gif

@AtheistReader I never said or even implied that the poor deserve to be poor. I said "If things aren't going well for you, it is probably your fault." Unless "you" are everyone that is not a generalization.

Poor people may be poor for many different reasons. However many poor people rise out of poverty, so the "charade" you refer to is the generalization.

@Bobby9 Hmmmm. So what did "you" in that sentence refer to, if not a generalized "you"? Are you saying that it meant specifically me? I find that not very credible. But that's not important.

Sure, there are some poor people who escape their poverty. You say "many" but that doesn't mean much. I suspect that they are rare exceptions. I guess we can research the statistics but as a public defender I've dealt a lot with the structural problems that poverty causes, always without exception.

Poor people are poor not for many different reasons, but they are poor because poverty tends to perpetuate poverty, and power tends to perpetuate power. "Poor people may be poor for many different reasons" is anotehr way of saying they are poor because of their own failings. I find that to be the biggest myth that too many people accept without questioning.

This is a quote from Kurt Vonnegut that I find pretty accurate on this issue:

"It is in fact a crime for an American to be poor, even though America is a nation of poor. Every other nation has folk traditions of men who were poor but extremely wise and virtuous, and therefore more estimable than anyone with power and gold. No such tales are told by the American poor. They mock themselves and glorify their betters. The meanest eating or drinking establishment, owned by a man who is himself poor, is very likely to have a sign on its wall asking this cruel question: ‘if you’re so smart why ain’t you rich?’ There will also be an American flag no larger than a child’s hand glued to a lollipop stick and flying from the cash register.

....

Americans, like human beings everywhere, believe many things that are obviously untrue. Their most destructive untruth is that it is very easy for any American to make money. They will not acknowledge how in fact hard money is to come by, and therefore, those who have no money blame and blame and blame themselves. This inward blame has been a treasure for the rich and powerful, who have had to do less for their poor, publicly and privately, than any other ruling class since, say, Napoleonic times."

@AtheistReader When you can cite a study showing how many people advanced from "poor" to "not poor" I guess we can fruther explore that point. Until then the point is if any member of "the poor" can escape poverty, why can't many? Let's look at just one person. Colin Powell. He was the son of poor immigrants, and lived in a poor neighborhood where no one would say evn a decent public education was available. Thus he had every reason to remain poor using your criteria. Whether you like his politics or not, he advanced to Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and Sec. of State. an unlikely progress considering his background.

Now before you say he is an exception, I agree he was an exception. My question is why is he an exception? If he did it, why didn't the majority of people from his neighborhood do it? Individual responsibility perhaps?

Last, who said it was easy to ake money? No one I know, it requires work.

@Bobby9 Ugh. In order to have any meaningful conversation, we need to have some basic understanding of logic.

But you are so invested in that slogan ("individual irresponsibility causes poverty" which is to say, the poor is poor because of their fault, which you denied believing in, but you really do), you jump to conclusions without any logical connection.

You argument is that exceptions exist therefore the cause of the exception must be due to the individual qualities. You have to know that's not necessarily true. Not at all. Even if it is true, the individual "qualities" may not be something inherent to the exception. You know, like "chance"?

The belief that "the poor people are poor because they are irresponsible" can at least have internal logical consistency. Your worldview does not.

@AtheistReader When you can cite a study telling us why poor people remain poor I'll read it.

I guess you think it takes a village. I did it on my own people with talent can too. I would agree talentless people will remain poor.

Your world view is simply wrong.

@Bobby9

A generalization at its worst. smile001.gif

@AtheistReader In your very bias opinion.

4

The majority are only concerned about crass materialism. to do something will require a total reversal of the present social goals.. Education is for the moment all we can do.

Eldovis Level 7 Sep 10, 2019
3

Just Fucking Scum .

GEGR Level 7 Sep 10, 2019
5

I think there's a fundamental difference in values. Their values do not include compassion, fairness, or respect for life (except their own). For some strange reason they profess to respect the (nonexistent, as yet) lives of the unborn, but once they're born, screw 'em.

dan325 Level 7 Sep 10, 2019

It is strange

1

Ah but they DO care. Just not about people not in their class. Even the liberals. Especially the liberals. They’re the ones most responsible for maintaining the status quo.

Bobbyzen Level 7 Sep 10, 2019

How’s that?

WTF

That's Fucking Bullshit and You Know It .

Write Comment