Agnostic.com
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The problem here is, guns are different from anything else. There is nothing else, that can kill someone a mile away, or the damage that carrying one around with you can do.

There is nothing else that it can be compared too. It's the only tangible thing mentioned in the Bill of Rights, the rest is a concept of what we do to each other. Just because it is mentioned does not mean there can be no limitations on it. Public safety is more important than one person's rights to own a dangerous weapon with no limitations.

Because it is so dangerous, we have to know that a person is capable and responsible, before they can have one. The right to bare arms has to come after our obligation to public safety.

There is no doubt that we have the right to protect ourselves and our families, but that does not mean by whatever means we want without any type of limitations. For a lot of people in this country, the chance they might have to protect themselves and their families is so small, that it can't really be used as a excuse to own a gun.

Determining what type of arms can be used, does not go against the right to bare arms, and once again,the obligation to public safety has to come before the right to bare arms.

If England had as many people as we do, we would still kill 5 times as many people, so obviously we have issues beyond gun control. The harder it is to kill each other, the less people die. We have the least amount of gun control of just about any other country and we kill each other for the dumbest reasons possible on a regular basis.

MikeFlora 7 July 9
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Mike,

A one mile shot is nearly impossible. Only a hand full of people in the world can do it. I'd guess you've never fired a firearm in your life. If you can pull off a 1+ mile shot, you need to be trained extensively. Most people can't do trigonometry in their head, and they have a spotter. Even if someone fires off willy nilly it would be happenstance. A 300 yard shot is tricky. Even if military trained.

I do agree with your point about what types of firearms should be allowed. You brought up the UK. Per capita, they have more robberies than in the US. Next to no guns. How do you recon that one out?

Not being a troll at all, but I'd like some input.

@fathercat According to your source, crimes are 82% more likely to happen in the UK VS the US.

I've fired and owned plenty of rifles and pistols. I was making a point, what a gun has the capacity to do, and why guns are different than any thing else. Both sides have nothing to compare to, so both sides have to make it up as we go.

@fathercat [telegraph.co.uk]

0

I've never read up on all these constitutions, bills of rights etc. But as I understand it aren't guns protected by the 2nd amendment? If so surely by it's very nature an amendment can be amended? Which buries the whole inalienable right argument.

Salo Level 7 July 9, 2018

you are right but amending the constitution is very difficult

@btroje shame they managed to do it before then

@Salo I don't think I understand your statement

@btroje for it to be a 2nd amendment, was something amended from the original?

@Salo no it is just the second tenet in the original constitution. NOw that you mention it it is confusing wording. If I am wrong someone please correct me

@btroje ok I just had a quick history lesson. The 18th amendment (covering prohibition) was repealed by the 21st amendment. I'm not suggesting it's simple but it looks like this would be the tree to bark up. I'm sure plenty of prohibitionists were stamping their feet insisting alcohol couldn't be sold as it said so in black and white in the constitution.

@Salo you are right again but it is still a big deal to change the constitution. even if I am not a historian 🙂 Think about suffragettes, right to vote for blacks, and the fact the Equal Rights amendment for women did not pass.

@btroje yes I appreciate that. But surely trying to change the constitution would be a more a valid approach than trying to change a law that couldn't be changed because the constitution was there to protect it from change

@Salo do not confuse this issue with logic 🙂 I am not pro gun and I think your idea is a good one but I think if people started to try to change the second amendment things would get more warlike than they are now

@btroje very true and that's something I can't really appreciate, not being a troop on the ground so to speak

In order to change a amendment a simple majority won't do, which means you need 66 senators, 287 congressmen and then be ratified by 38 states. There is no way you will ever get that many people to agree on anything.
The last time that happened was 1933 when the 21st amendment repealed the 18th amendment ending prohibition.

@MikeFlora agreed that sounds an impossibility. And if it got remotely close the NRA etc would find enough money to tie the process up with appeals, business threats, character assassination....and if it still succeeded the next problem would be the hordes defending their right to bear arms. With arms 😟 Time changes everything and I hope at some point in the future attitudes will change but the foreseeable future I reluctantly concede there will be plenty of guns in the hands of plenty of maniacs.

@Salo The only hope we have is limitations, and that's not easy either. A lot of pro gun people think they should be allowed to own as many, and any kind, of weapon they want to without any oversight or limitations. So there is no part of this that isn't a uphill battle.

There is no need to amend the constitution to have gun control. The kinds of weapons that can legally be possessed by civilians is already regulated. The Dept. of Justice prohibits fully automatic firearms, mines, bazookas, armored tanks, etc. etc. The DoJ could easily prohibit assault weapons tomorrow.

0

It's sickening that any of this needs saying, but im.glad you did

Salo Level 7 July 9, 2018
1

I much as I agree,rational thinking is largely ignored by the opposition. Solution for that? I honestly don't know. But until that can be resolved, any argument is pointless. Also, not trying to be a pain in the ass, but if you want to be taken seriously, grammer is a must. It's "bear arms", not bare.

nvrnuff Level 8 July 9, 2018

I would rather have bare arms than bear arms. just saying

bear arms sounds like furry arms like a grizzly, I like bare better

@MikeFlora Well it's your credibility, do what you will.

0

No doubt it is a serious problem

HeraTera Level 7 July 9, 2018
3

We are an incredibly immature country, full of ignorant rednecks, led by a man-child. It will take at least one or one and a half generations to pass on before there is a chance this country will take a rational view of guns.

Sticks48 Level 9 July 9, 2018

You're absolutely right. The general nature of the human animal is not the best either. Even the most trained ,intelligent even tempered person could be pushed over the edge.

@Kojaksmom I've never been prone to violent actions or losing my temper. But im human, and should it ever happen it's probably best that I don't have a gun

@Kojaksmom I agree. Either shooting someone in a fit of passion or shooting yourself in a state of grief or depression. I haven't owned a gun since my early twenties. I've played redneck bars, biker bars, and everything in between, and never felt l needed a gun. I don't get it.

@Sticks48 I'm single and I live alone in a neighborhood that's not considered to be one of the best. I feel the same way about owning guns and weapons.

@Kojaksmom ditto. The situations I have been in where many people would say a gun would have helped may have turned out worse if I had a gun. So far my brain has been a pretty good weapon

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