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Please criticize my logic .

In order to finish with Brexit and heal the divide in the country ,it is possible that one needs some thought on the most productive way of reaching a right decision that most thinking people use more that any other strategy . What follows is not an attempt to make you feel stupid if you did not reach the same conclusion as myself.

First one defines what the problem is by doing research. I feel that we have not been allowed to look into the ulterior motives of the ERG and other brexiteers.

Then one has a few thoughts about whether it is worth pursuing these thoughts to an ultimate conclusion -in financial or emotional terms. I feel that the 2016 referendum at least really got us thinking. It is almost impossible for any one person to think through all the consequences of a range of possible outcomes of peering your conclusion - in as big a project as Brexit it in doubly impossible.
Next you have to realize that in helping other people to make a collective decision that there is a flaw in human make up which says that you must make the decision QUICKLY. It is an evolutionary thing. One had to make up one’s mind quickly as to whether a wild beast was friendly or thinking of you as lunch.
This quick decision thing has persisted and in general it has helped a lot of people survive. But it will not help us too much over Brexit because of its complexity . It is more than deciding about a lunch bite.
To counter this you take all the available time - you lengthen it as much as possible . Ask for an extension so as to be sure that it is right. 

Then when all the facts are in, one studies projection of the future possible facts . It is wise at this stage to study worse possible outcomes. This is NOT project fear - just common sense and one does not edit out any possibility. All have to be left ‘on the table’.

With all that done it would be ideal to go on holiday to let all thoughts go round and round in your head whilst you do something entirely different.. Bad thoughts often pop up unexpectedly but naturally.
Finally one does not arrive at a decision based on false promises.

Now one has then to ratify it - take completely different angle on the decision. 

Is this not the process YOU took when you last bought a house ,chose a holiday or went on strike to get a pay rise? Voting as many times as you could to get a clear picture of how everyone involved with the decision has made their decisions?
Brexit can still reach this 'ideal' process. It can be made less painful.

Mcflewster 8 Mar 9
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There are too many emotions involved in Brexit. Cold hard logic producing intelligent conclusions has been ignored.
Will the UK be better off with Theresa May's deal or WTO rules? It has to be her deal since the English people decided to take the UK out of the EU.
I would rather that the 2016 referendum was seen as being purely advisory. Then the government would seek to firstly build a coalition of unity involving all parties to produce consensus on the options for the UK. Once they have been explored they would be scrutinised by parliament who would produce a selection of final choices for the people to vote on.
In the primary and secondary campaigns a non-political group must be used to cross-check the facts. That way the NHS bus would have been outed as a lie and those spouting it as facts could be exposed liars.

Sofabeast Level 7 Mar 10, 2019

"government would seek to firstly build a coalition" But exactly why did they not do that?

@Mcflewster We tried to cover that in Politics, and we came up simply with divisions and incompetance.


Sadly, the project was hastily produced and never thought through. You are right - there were quite a lot of people in the country, as well as right-wing politicians who were not happy with what they thought were the effects of being in the EU, but instead of discussing the pros and cons and the reality of the situation, it went immediately into a progaganda war which we are still in. Part of what jeremy Corbyn is doing with his trips to different parts of the country is trying to get across to people what the real reasons for their unhappiness are, and how a Labour government would change things, but he is drowned out by the clamour of the media who think only in sound-bites.

CeliaVL Level 7 Mar 10, 2019

Some good solid points here. Ever think off becoming a politician?

@Mcflewster I was in local politics for 10 years. I think I am too old now. (75) I want to see more young people in politics. It is their future we are destroying.

Corbyn has also been meeting with leaders in Europe, putting forward a possible Labour alternative plan to them.

@Red_Cat I share Corbyn's ambivalence about the whole EU thing. I wonder if I would be happy with what he is arranging.

@CeliaVL I have just watched a Channel 4 Dispatches about who has already made millions out of the Brexit uncertainty. Mogg, Osbourne, Johnson, Cameron, the former Brexit minister whose name I disremember, and many overseas buyers of multi-million pound UK properties, who took advantage of the key moments when the pound slumped, and purchasers of gold. Add to that the politicians profiteering by making speeches for exorbitant fees and it is painfully obvious that those who were taken in by the promises given by the quitters (pre-referendum) were suckered to the detriment of all of us.

The irony is that the EU was always a peace project, and free trade was just one means of keeping nations together in a single union.

@Red_Cat Although there are many things I like about the EU - especially the peace, community, education, research, travel aspects - it is essentially a capitalist club. That is enshrined in its basic dogma.As a socialist I can't support that aspect of it and i see no real prospect of changing it from within. I prefer the Norway position.

@CeliaVL Interestingly, May's latest attempt at fudging a deal seems to be being met with plenty of opposition. We might be back to square one come Friday morning, at which point there will likely be increased pressure for a second referendum. I wonder what the turnout might be...


Damn it I come here to get away from this Brexshit

I do share your feelings but about how we got into this mess in the first place . I now feel that I can not leave this subject alone. It is too important as it could set precedents for millennia. Look at my post as a sort of logic puzzle to find the weak spots. Would that Help? After all logic and reason are one of religions weak spots and we should be building up our expertise in those skills.

Brexit just gets more and more interesting. Hope you in the USA do not have to go through this.

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