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Does anyone have thoughts on the relationship between free choice/thought and predetermined "plans" which are laid out in the various religions. If a Religion has a Plan for me or for all of mankind and the future is known, do I have free thought/choice at all?

Maxwell55 5 Jan 2

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What "religion" may or may not be plannng for me is a ludicrous waste of time because frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn.


There is no relationship between the two. You have total choice on how to live your life. You may have constraints, economic, social etc. but you would "choose" to let any religious constraints in. Prime examples are Bruce Jenner changing his sex, poor kids growing up to be rich executives, paraplegics winning downhill races etc. Any "plan" tells you that you have no choice, rational thought and real world examples tell you that you do.

lerlo Level 8 Jan 3, 2018

There is no free will. Life is simply a matter of rolling downhill like the Cooper's Hill Cheese-Rolling and Wake event near Gloucester, England. A bunch of people chase a rolling cheese down an incline and they fall, and stumble and slide and roll and jump and essentially go downhill as best as they can. The specifics or their descent are totally random but everybody makes and effort to catch the cheese. Life is like that. Every day you are pushed from all angles (coffee/tea, scones/muffins, butter/no butter, jeans/dress, etc.) and you do that which pushes you the most. You might think this is predetermination but it's only the result of random factors configured at random to produce a resultant force that pushes you in a specific direction in any specific moment. Bottom line, enjoy the ride and hope that the forces in you and your environment don't produce too many crappy results.
The only ones who have a plan for you are the bastards trying to screw you.

Then there was the Mexican kid behind them yelling "Nacho Cheese!!" Nacho Cheese!!" (Not yo cheese) which caused them to fall to the wayside realizing it was HIS cheese. Sorry, you set me up for that one

So would murderer or rapist be responsible since they had no free choice?

@Maxwell55 @Maxwell55 Whoa, whoa... how did we get to responsibility? I know, I'm being dense on purpose. It's the other way around. Because we started out believing in free will, we figured we could plonk justice on top of it. Now anytime we try to get away from free will, the whole edifice of justice seems to be nailing it down in place. But the relationship between free will and justice is arbitrary; convenient, but arbitrary. Fortunately there's no reason to keep it. All you do is unplug justice from free will and plug into fact. You murdered or raped? It doesn't matter whether you had free will or not. It doesn't matter whether you are "responsible" or not. You did it and we can't have you floating around and risking that you do it again, so you get to be contained. Lack of free will is irrelevant to justice.


I was once told that I was struggling because I was fighting destiny. Destiny, fate and god's will were all the same thing, and I wasn't going along with it. If I were to seek god's will and follow his guidance things would be awesome for me This was during my troubled believer stage and I tried to really process the information. Even then I saw the whole idea as rubbish.


I don't think there's any such thing as "free will." We don't choose to be born, we don't choose our gender, our sexuality, our family, our location, the times in which we will live, or the opportunities that will or will not come to us. We have "some" choice, but the challenge is figuring what what we can control, what we can't control, and what we can do in the midst of those parameters.

I like your comment. Since we do not choose to be born, should we be allowed to choose when, where and how we die? Should suicide be legal?


I do not think that the universe and all that it contains was predetermined by some omniscient being. However, I am more inclined to think that the universe is conditionally deterministic and runs on the basis of conditional determinism. For example, if you are walking down a street in your town tomorrow at a 15:00 and a friend is walking down the same side of the same street then at some point in time you will meet (of course,you could imagine a situation where the street is filled with thousands of people) however, given such a state of affairs, it is a conditional certainty that both of you will meet somewhere on that street at some point in time. If you or he are not on that street tomorrow at any given time then no such meeting or event will take place. The prevailing conditions give rise to a state of affairs, which, may be of extremely short duration or longer in the case of human interactions.


Astrology the stuff you read in the newspaper and print is all premeditation they present an idea around some obscure fact then you read it and you try and antique the situation. I just do it for fun, some live by the sword of predetermined fate. Free Will is much harder to determine because there is always a driving factor behind a preparation most cases it is greed but not always some do thing based on an emotional goal. To feel elated or looking for forgiveness in a past miss deed. Nothing is entirely untangled most people do the emotional response on a subliminal level. You can give a dollar to a homeless person and hope they buy food with it, in the back of your mind you might be contiplating if they are going to use that money for a intoxicating substance. You reward your food server with a tip this is because they helped you have a pleasant meal again an emotional response. I woul state if I had no choice that freewill is a precipitation to cirmstance.


I love loaded questions... I remember a famous saying by judge Judy. Would of, could of, should of. What does that mean?


If the future is known? If you don't believe in the religion why would you believe in what they say about the future?


I do not think there is free will but how would you create an experiment to demonstrate this?

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