"The old test of piety, 'Are you willing to be damned for the glory of God?' was probably never answered in the affirmative except by those who felt sure in their heart of hearts that God would 'credit' them with their willingness, and set more store by them thus than if in His unfathomable scheme He had not damned them at all."
-William James, Principles of Psychology
I had a religious experience once, a lucid dream in which I and everybody I knew at the time experienced the Rapture. A lone figure ascended to Heaven; the ground began to suck the rest of us down into Hell. As all panicked and scrabbled for purchase to prevent their consumption into the earth, I remained calm and experienced a feeling of correctness. My eternal fate I accepted, and I would not have changed it given the opportunity. Witnessing divine Justice, Hell my pending lot, I did not curse God but respected His judgment and loved Him withal. Since then I have argued that the only true way one can prove an unselfish love for God is by answering James' old test of piety in the affirmative by way of reacting as above to sure damnation. I am an egoist and so don't believe that anything can be unselfish, but are there any non-egoists among you who object?
i don't understand why i should have a love, unselfish or otherwise, for an imaginary being. the rest is kind of irrelevant given that one point. it would've been irrelevant to me even if i were not an atheist, since i have never been a christian, and in judaism, love of god means loving god's creation, not passing tests to show how much you're willing to hurt yourself (the story of isaac notwithstanding). anyway, i have been an atheist longer than my whole adult life, so i have no interest in pretending to please that nonexistent personage. setting god aside, you don't believe that anyone can be unselfish but i do not share your belief. i think we're hard-wired (not that everyone is fully plugged in lol) to care about the group, not as much as ants or bees are to be sure, but enough to maintain the species, and then with our level of sentience, even more than that.
g
I am not familiar with this (to me) rather weird "test of piety". I suppose the general concept is to believe / trust / love god in the "though he slay me, yet will I trust him" sense. I do not see this as pious or virtuous, but as horribly dysfunctional. This is just another way of voicing the little ditty I was taught as a child: "God said it, I believe it, that settles it". Reject 100% of the evidence of your senses and intellect and personal experience -- "let god be true, and every man a liar".
That way lies madness. It is the basis for the failed epistemology of religious faith, the rejection of evidence, the denigration of substantiation, suicide of the mind and therefore of one's humanity.
You’ve lost me on the desire to prove an unselfish love to god. Yeah logically if someone believed in god and wanted to prove that, they would have to be willing to worship regardless of their own fate otherwise they are only doing it in self interest. I don’t have a horse in that race though because no such god exists to try and impress. If egoism means the underlying moral theory that one ought to do right in their own self interest, I would agree with it in principle as being the bare minimum reason to do so. I think it’s a poor reason to stop there though, and that it nicely describes the only real reason Christians display much morality. Id like to think a more pure form of altruism is possible, although I wouldn’t rely on most people for it.
This may be way over my head, but a completely egotist, seems to be out of balance. The same with a completely non-egotist, personality! I do not believe that a person can maintain just one aspect of his nature, for a prolonged period of time! We are shaped by our culture and upbringing environment, and neither of these are static. Maybe if a person never knew anything but a deserted island, his nature would be severely set! But, even then he might start to interact with nature more deeply and that would alter his personality! I am wondering if you are religious or not religious?
I am what Slavoj Žižek would call a "good atheist," viz. an atheist who formerly believed in God. But I am not talking about egotism; I'm talking about egoism. Egoism is a fundamental moral theory that underlies considerations of culture and upbringing.
@JudgeHolden ...I once believed in God, but never a god of revenge! Lol. I would have to get my mind ‘set-up’ to delve into ‘egoism,’ I can see where we might get carried away, if every motive we have is of self interest? I think that could ‘wonder off’ into pathology! Another time..,just too deep for today!
As a rebellious teenager I accused my preacher-father (and Christians in general) of simply doing what he believed would be in his long-range best interest, and I posed what was essentially James' test to him. I asked if he would continue to love/serve God if he knew Satan would win and he would be sentenced to eternal damnation for his commitment.. He didn't respond immediately, but after a couple of days he said: "I can't say what I would do; but I hope I would continue to love/serve God."
I respected that response.