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A Facebook friend of mine put up a Bowie fan page and invited me to join. I like Bowie even though I don’t need to see pics of him daily. She asked so I joined. It brings back memories of high school, etc.

I was reading about groupies from the 70’s and saw the stories of Lori Maddox, Sable Starr, Pamela DesBarres, and others: Teen girls, using their pubescent appeal – and lots of sex – to gain the attentions of rich and famous rock stars. Lori Maddox would begin an affair with Jimmy Page at 15 – documented in the book The Hammer of the Gods, none of which she denies. He essentially kidnaps her to start. Sable Starr was the subject of an Iggy Pop song in which he boasts of having her at age 13. There’s so many other of these stories: Steven Tyler adopts a groupie, w/ her parents’ help, so he can bang her across state lines; Bill Wyman begins dating a girl at 13 and marries her at 18. (It was short lived.) Also Ted Nugent, R. Kelly, Sir Mick Jagger, Marvin Gaye – the list goes on and on.

So, I posted to the page mentioning Lori Maddox’s claim that she lost her virginity to Bowie at 14. It’s a small group but 2 female members – well into middle age who may’ve had groupie experiences of their own – came out hard as apologists for the rock stars. No one took anything from those girls, my friend said. They knew what they were doing. Sure, but the law, even in the 70’s, was not ambiguous. Children are offered legal protections from their predatory idols, even if they claim love – as Lori Maddox still does today. It’s not up to the discretion of a sexually precocious 14 y.o. girl. And then there’s the power differential – remember Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinsky? And she was a college grad. I don’t need to list all of the arguments why it should be this way. I’ll leave it at that.

According to studies, married women, especially white women, are most likely to vote Republican. It’s been this way for generations: Married women vote for patriarchy. It works for them, I reckon. Remember Phyllis Schlafly? It was a woman that killed the E.R.A.

Still, I’m stunned by the apologia for rock stars from these two. (They’re both married BTW.)

Here's the funny part: My friend messaged me to say she was taking down the discussion. She thought it "got too heavy." She won't stand behind the apologia after all.

By Deiter7
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None of what follows excuses the above; but it is a matter of historical truth that the elites get away with behavior that would make us mere commoners shrivel with shame to even contemplate. It's been that way since Ancient Greece at least. Probably even in the earliest human tribal arrangements, the chief and his family got to do whatever they wanted, but the average hunter would get his ass beat for looking at the wrong gatherer.

Look at mythology; the Gods of every religion carry on the way most human beings wish they could in the matter of smiting enemies and appearing as bulls, golden showers, etc. It's not surprising that humans at a godlike level of influence and power comport themselves just as shamelessly. The ride usually goes on until the public catches wind of something really over the top, at which point the story becomes, "How the mighty have fallen". And the more entertaining the individual is perceived to be, the more grievous the infraction necessary to bring them down. Just look at "Grab them by the pussy" Trump. That his own party did not disown him at that point says horrible things about their hierarchy; that 46.1% of voters cast their vote for him says even worse things about America.

Just my opinion. I guess.

Paul4747 Level 7 Feb 9, 2019

The Queen of the Groupies, Pamela Des Barres, created a cottage industry out of being a former groupie – she's published multiple books, appeared in Playboy, etc. She insisted she was empowered, feminist even, and simply lived life in a way that most would've dreamed of. More recently, another ex-groupie, Roxana Shirazi, wrote a book that was far less enthusiastic. She described a situation more like what you describe – she said there's a power dynamic in those encounters that puts these young women at an extreme disadvantage. In the age of #metoo the attitudes and tolerances are changing.

@Deiter My hope is that the dynamic doesn't go too far in the other direction, which I have seen signs of- for instance, some treat any hint of office romance between colleagues (not bosses) as sexual harassment, so forth. Women do have agency.


There was alot that went on in the 70's that we frown on now. It's as though society as a whole broke free of the conventions of the 50's and early 60's and went to extremes of permissiveness in social mores including drug use. Then the pendulum swung back and we moved forward. We learned,....again... that parents should be more protective and that drugs can be dangerous. It's all an ebb and flow. The same kind of social extremes occurred in the 1920's as an example.

Nina Level 4 Feb 2, 2019


I'd also argue that the same is going on now regarding to Islam. Progressives are sensitive to Islamophobia and so are loath to call attention to its troubling values. They nod along when they say burkas and hijab, etc. "liberate" women. And Linda Sarsour has many educated white women defending her and ignoring much of what she's said.

We're troubling creatures when it comes to logic. What we say has a lot to do with reacting rather than acting. Reactions are more dramatic and often go way past the target.


There was quite an age difference between my 2nd wife and I.....suddenly I feel like a rock star. That endless practice in my living room has paid off! But seriously......

If these "children" are running around the country /world Mom & Dad must be somewhere else, both physically and mentally.
The kids themselves seem to have gotten a hell of an education, for better or worse. Was it worth it to them? Surprisingly, some say Yes.
Would I let my daughter (if I had one) play around with grown men....Hell No!
Would I let my sons (two) play football? Hell no!

The artist' mind is wired different that's for sure...(difficult for me to equate Ted Nugent w/ art). Rock and Roll IS energy, so there will always be that teenage dynamic ( I took my son to see Fall Out! talk about audience energy, typical age under 16, I'd guess).
But it's also a business and that's an adult thing...somebody is not minding the store here ( Frank Bruni wrote a good column recently in NY Times about the media giving Trump a pass....well what sells newspapers/ what people buy is bullshit & tweets Frank. Fix that and changes will follow)

Bottom line, Rich & Famous buys a lot. A helluva lot. Now we know a little bit more about what press agents do, don't we?

twill Level 7 Jan 15, 2019

The daughter of my family's banker "went out" with Ted Nugent. She was 15 at the time, and it raised a few eyebrows, but not as much as it should have.

I really wish I could write all of this off to the free love of the 60s on 70s 'roids. But, lookit, the underage groupie culture still exists; you just don't see it, because the press is smart enough not to write about it. I imagine that the rock stars are more discreet as well. I was the significant other of the frontman of an alt-rock group for many years, and I saw it up-close and personal. This phenomenon ultimately boiled down to an epic parenting FAIL. Either the 'rents were MIA, or they actively encouraged it. Because, rich and famous. It's a real ugly scene. And no, there is no female empowerment; just a lot of hungover girls getting dropped off in the middle of Big City by the tour bus in the wee hours of the morning.

How does a 15 y.o. travel interstate w/o a parent's collusion, either actively or passively? The fact that these women even today, as does Lori Maddox, still speak so well of these exploiters is only more proof of how desperate they were. Even if their surrogate daddy came with an unquenchable boner, it was close enough for them, I guess.

@Deiter I suppose, though I don't know, that this was more permissible back in the 60s and 70s than it is now. In one of its earliest issues, Rolling Stone ran a feature story about the groupie culture and spun it very positively. My assumption was that most people just turned a blind eye to it and told themselves that the girls were of consenting age (even though they weren't). Like I said, in my case, most of the parents were uninvolved. That tended to be a general pattern, although there were a few mother-daughter groupie duos. That always weirded me out a little.

Nugent, even totally ignoring his gun rants, etc, is a sick fuck. Bragging about banging little girls, and doing so apparently. Mistreating his wives and children. He said Iin an interview that when his ex wife died in a car crash that he told his little kids that she deserved to die for doing drugs and alcohol.

@Beowulfsfriend Actually, Nugent in his younger days, was quite the boozer and drug user.


This was one of the hubs.



Jerry Lee Lewis legally married his 13 year old cousin. Loretta Lynn was 15 when she got married. I guess the beat goes on.

People keep throwing up those tidbits as if because it may be more pervasive, it's OK or even less wrong – which was my argument above. I'm not buying into that. To state the obvious, but, lots of people owned slaves and the Bible endorsed it – still wrong.

@Deiter Oh, I agree . . . but according to cultural standards, it was legal. And when it wasn't legal, people still looked away because it was a tenet of the patriarchy for men, including very old men, to have young wives. The same applies to rape--it was ignored.


If I listen to an artist's music I do not have to have pics of the artist. I'm that way with all of them. I do try to find out as much as I can of them and I'm finding now as I get older that I am liking artists that I should have liked when I was younger.

DenoPenno Level 8 Dec 25, 2018


Still love his music but my point is more He's not a saint – so let's cool it on the sainthood: K?

@Deiter Nobody is.

@maturin1919 Sure, but it doesn't stop the hagiography or apologia.

@Deiter I myself am going through apotheosis.


Rock and roll is a terrible business, and very exploitive of women. I agree with your stance, and more power to you. I was in the rock music business in Los Angeles, and witnessed terrible goings on. I have a hard time getting behind the whole "groupies were empowered" discourse.

Orbit Level 7 Dec 23, 2018

Some good points here. Those 'married women vote republican' is changing as women are educated and want good jobs. They don't want to be just child producer and home maker as "the bible would have it'.
Bowie did some revolutionary stuff for his day (slightly before my time) but I have to say my fav is this:

You're an optimist.


I saw Bowie back in the early 90s, although I wasn’t as big a fan as most, and, I, too, was shocked when he died by how many people wanted to gloss over his sexual past.

I remember Phyllis Schalafly, the witch. Didn't her son come out as gay?

Didn't know that. Wiki: "Schlafly acknowledged that John is gay, but stated that he embraces his mother's views." Her son only proved to be the worst sort off Log Cabin Repub, then. As Maude used to tell her husband, "God will get you for that..." Maybe He did but she, apparently, beat him back.

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