I had quite an interesting response to my query about masculinity vs toxic masculinity. To further muddy the waters…. Is there such a thing as Toxic Homosexuality? How about Toxic Femininity? Is the Toxic adjective simply an indicator of using your sexual orientation to bully others?
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Feel free to reply to any comment by clicking the "Reply" button.Yes, such a term is used to debase the opposing viewpoint. Small wonder why I don't care much to indulge in identity politics...
SpikeTalon
Level 9
Feb 26, 2020
1
There are 8ndeed toxic people of all types.....why label according to preferred gender?
AnneWimsey
Level 9
Jan 26, 2019
1
Good point.
So we can do something about it..being specific gives you something to concentrate on and discuss and learn about it..
Ie: if you have a room full of boxes telling someone to go read that label on that box over there, is not really helpful.
Toxicity is not the exclusive province of males. However ... that is not what people are suggesting when they use the term "toxic masculinity". They are simply talking about a particular topic.
And people who deflect from that specific topic with non sequiturs like "women / gays / some other group do it too" are avoiding real and meaningful engagement. Always be suspicious of "what about-ism". It's generally a disinformation campaign to avoid real discussion.
One can separately discuss, say, toxic femininity ... but not as a defense for, or minimization of, toxic masculinity.
mordant
Level 8
Jan 26, 2019
2
In my opinion, it is an attempt to water down the debate. By equally applying it and saying it is 'comparable' or 'the same' or 'equivalent' is taking away the powerful truth that toxic masculinity has on our society/culture. It's not good for boys, it's not good for girls...the way we raise our boys is only a small part of the problem because schools and the workplace also reward the types of behaviors that feed into toxic behavior. It is not an attempt to feminize men or boys, it is an attempt to humanize men and boys. And of course everyone can be assholes...that's not the point. This is at the next level up from interpersonal relationships. A part of culture and social traditions that minimize the voices of women and girls. The Me Too movement is a result of the realization by some women that their anger is justified and that they will seek equality in all aspects of life: Home, Work, Politics.
mojo5501
Level 7
Jan 26, 2019
4
Yeah, toxicity comes disproportionately from my fellow men, if for no other reason than that we've held most of the default power in society until very recently, and really, to a large extent even now.
I don't know enough about the "homosexual community" and if it even makes sense to make a distinction in behavior there but concerning toxic femininity this TED talk comes to mind:
Dietl
Level 7
Jan 26, 2019
2
I am familiar with Christen Reighter as I am myself a woman who never wanted children. There are politically conservative and religious people who would consider her views to be subversive and threatening to cultural and social stability. She is much younger than I am and grew up in the post-Title IX era whereas I was denied access to certain resources when I was growing up.
I began working for myself in 1999 but up until then, I'd been asked by employers what did I need money for and why wasn't I married. One idiot supervisor once blurted out to me that I could not be given a raise because I would make more than the men. I held technical positions in high-end printing for many years and was always the only non-clerical woman AND the youngest person in my department. Around 1998, I had given a highly technical and detailed presentation to representatives from Kraft Foods when a co-worker in the meeting, an older man, announced to the room that I was "a bright girl" but I didn't know what I was talking about. Through the 80s and 90s there were always rumors that I was some lesbian man hater. This is how some men can respond when they feel their dominance is threatened by someone they do not perceive as their equal.
@DeStijl Everyone who walks astray from "god's/nature's chosen path" gets treated like they have some kind of brain damage. How dare day want to make their own decisions? Oh, the audacity to not do what is expected of you. This kind of thinking was always so ridiculous to me. Just imagine the person in front of you is an individual who knows best themselves how their life should look like. For some people this is too much to ask apparently.
Toxic being detrimental as is poison.
John Wayne Gacy was a toxic homosexual.
Toxic femininity.
Perhaps the Norwegian seductress pretending to be East Indian the spy Mata Hari or Anestasia Vashukevich.
Bully or manipulate into nefarious pursuits.
"simply an indicator"? I think yes.
Mooolah
Level 8
Jan 26, 2019
1
From Katykatikate blog. I agree with this 100%
"Toxic femininity is a narrow and repressive description of womanhood, designating womanhood as defined by cooperation, sexual subservience, status, and passivity. It’s the cultural ideal of womanliness, where the ability to please is everything while troublesomeness is a weakness; where beauty and ability to make men feel good are yardsticks by which women are measured, while supposedly “masculine” traits—which can range from expressing anger to sexual independence — are the means by which your status as “woman” can be taken away."
DoctoralZombie
Level 7
Jan 26, 2019
4
Defined by your uterus and what it is 'supposed' to be doing: Motherhood. Women who choose not to have children are still not really accepted very well in our culture. Reproductive freedom for women is still a 'thing'....a controversial subject.
As a straight, white male who has never oppressed or abused anyone (nor have the majority of other straight, white males I personally know), I am starting to get quite tired of always hearing about how toxic, or evil, or oppressive straight white males are. Seems to me that this is sexism and racism, too, only dressed as a different animal.
Piratefish
Level 7
Jan 26, 2019
3
Agree. We're in the same tribe.
My wife & I just want to be left alone.
As a woman who has been subjected to multiple dangerous situations involving men- I would like to say I am fucking tired, too.
Good, but quit lumping me and the 95% of other men who didn't do shit into the same category as those assholes. Either that, or be okay with treating all women as gold diggers, gossipers, liars, materialistic, etc.
This is two sides of the same coin. Blame the individual, not the entire group. Or maybe we should kill all dogs because a couple of bad ones bit you?
yyyyyyyep...
@Piratefish "Good, but quit lumping me and the 95% of other men who didn't do shit"..
95% ? Really? You might wanna lower that number [down] considerably..
Just because you might associate with some bad people, you think I ought to lower my estimate? Where are you meeting all of these bad men? You work at a prison?
@Piratefish likely its how we define it is what makes the difference.. reading your texts you seem to be one of those 5% (by my definition).. your anger at something (the world? Females? Not sure) reads loud and clear..
Impressive ad hominem attack. I'm not going to your level on this one.
@Piratefish not ad hominem, as in this discussion of toxic masculinity its directly related to the problem at hand.. guys who refuse to even acknowledge that they might be part of the problem.
Its a fucked up catch 22 i guess.. the ones who get upset about possibly being called toxic are very likely the ones that are toxic..
@Captain_Feelgood Then stand up and do your part in stopping these shits. Do the work to make a cultural change, because your comments are not helping. Too lazy, weak or indifferent to stand up to your brethern? Fine, then sit down, shut up and let the rest of us fix what is clearly a man problem. Oh, and by the way, if you are not one of these bad guys, why are you so butt hurt about women and minorities asking for a change that has nothing to do with you?
@bigpawbullets If you "want to be left alone" with respect to this issue, why did you seek to start this conversation?
@DeStijl
well,
We want to live our lives as we see fit. But I still want to understand this strange phenomenon.
OK?
@DoctoralZombie MMMMMM... beg your pardon? ?
I'm still wondering where some of you, apparently, know so many men with "toxic masculinity". You may seriously wish to reevaluate the kinds of people with whom you are hanging out. Is it really so staggering to believe that most of us are actually decent human beings?
(Edited a typo)
I’m sure a case can be made for those types of toxicity and more along any category. Toxic Christianity, toxic atheism, toxic Disney ride attendant, etc. These identity buckets if you will can have a wide range along the benefit/harm spectrum depending on the individual.
I definitely get that a lot of ppl often read more negativity into others words than what is actually intended. In this case, do they mean that maleness is itself toxic? Or just a particular set of behavior/attitudes? If someone uses that and you’re reading negativity, maybe it doesn’t hurt to ask their intent or to nail down a little more specifically what they mean?
I also get that “toxic masculinity” is used much more right now than pretty much anything else, like those others you mentioned. Personally, I wouldn’t read too much into it given the current environment. If I think someone’s overstating something I don’t mind asking for clarification.
These conversations can be difficult so I think we all should expect some discomfort. The trick is not to take it personally.
Sorry if any of this comes across preachy, definitely not my intent. I make shitty mistakes daily. Also, I work in the tech field. =]
What are your thoughts?
Acree
Level 4
Jan 26, 2019
4
There are people and there are bad people, no such thing as toxic anything in this context, is just sound bites for the illiterate and to stir up a non existent moral panic.
LenHazell53
Level 9
Jan 26, 2019
1
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