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I want honest opinions and no fighting.
If you want to fight - make your own thread.

I just saw something really interesting in a group of mine on FB.

Someone didn't let a Vegan into a group because they don't feed their cat meat and they felt it was actual animal abuse.

Now biologically we can confirm that with those teeth - they are meant to eat meat. That would be their natural state.

Ethically we understand how Vegans would feel about it.

But I'd love to hear how other people regard this.

Because I was really surprised by how vehemently most people felt?

My understanding was always that you could supplement for the missing nutrients (which might not be best practice - but would work).

I'm not going to put up a poll - that would be too simplistic.

And really I want to know what you all think. I'm curious. I mean it's funny in a way - to see Atheists fighting about this? (Yup it's an Athiests FB group - they're nutty there too).
And apparently the person had some other flaws that were known so that might have been part of the denial as well - so don't think they're just all mean. They really aren't.
But they're all people with long term illness and they don't deal well with people being "woo" in any way.

Addendum: The person was not already a group member - this was an application to enter the group - so no name was ever mentioned. It's a FB thing.
It was not the only marker that said they might cause conflict either. And the group is for folks with medical issues - who are there for support and education. Conflict isn't good for them. So weeding out someone with those markers might be necessary.

RavenCT 9 Jan 28
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32 comments (26 - 32)

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1

If I saw a cow attacking a bear for sustenance, I would give pause for cogitation. Each of us knows what our system needs. If someone feels the need to gnaw on semi-thawed meat, who am I to say that there are better ways? If a salad suffices for others, who am I to say that's wrong?

1

From what I understand, animals aren't able to assimilate the nutrients when they are artificial/chemically made.

Some animals aren't built to eat such a narrow food base.

Oh there would be no way? Because they're not at all domesticated.

My cat can still have small amounts of milk and cheese because he's continued to have trace amounts since kittenhood and didn't lose the enzyme. But I know that.

That logic applies in reverse as well. There are just things a non-domesticated animal would have to have. Or suffer.

She needed to consult a Vet at the very least. How very sad.

@RavenCT I deleted the part about the fennec fox because on further research I found I was incorrect.

I personally don't understand the vegan mentality (no insult intended), so I believe if an animal is meant to eat meat they should be provided meat. If you can't handle that, then get another pet.

We are animals and we can use artificial nutrients. Its all about how precisely the molecular structure of the nutrient matches with the chemical processes an animals body will use to derive sustenance from it. The main issue with an entirely artificial diet is that they are really way to complicated for our current level of understanding. We can Identify the main nutrients an organism needs but we can't really account for every biological process because we don't even know them all yet. Take the issue of Taurine in feline diets as someone already mentioned. We killed a lot of cats by not knowing. What else don't we know that is causing some unknown suffering to them.

Making some artificial nutrients and supplementing them into a creatures diet to offset cost or availability is one thing. Trying to re engineer the whole natural nutritional system of a creature to be opposite of what 600 Million years of evolution has designed it to be is crazy.

@kiramea Yes I'd want to see some proof that cats are ok on a substitute diet. I do believe with a Taurine supplement they could be ok. But then they wouldn't be vegan as a guess.

I've met folks who have done it and had excellent survival rates with Vegan cats so there has to be a way to do it that works and is fairly healthy (or they were cheating like crazy.).

1

It's not as simplistic as source, but balance of ALL of the nutritional components required to thrive. If the essential amino acid proportions (part of protein that we ultimately need) can be provided by other than a meat diet, then that should meet the cat's protein needs (assuming it's eaten, digested, etc...).

Meeting the protein needs meat free might miss other nutrients that are needed though, vitamins, minerals, specific fats etc... The balancing act can be very tricky - ask any vet or animal nutrition major.

If I needed to avoid animal protein in my pet, I would work with a professional (vet or nearby university) to make sure any resulting diet is not deficient in anything. Certain deficiencies can kill.Cat food producers used to not know that cats require taurine. A lot of lives likely got cut short (cardiac effects etc) due to that mistake.

As to blackballing the applicant to a FB group based on such a thing, seems like malarky to me, with what little I have heard about it.

Zster Level 8 Jan 28, 2019

Taurine came to mind. But they make supplements. Whether they make vegan supplements? IDK.

And yes I was perplexed. I think there were other factors.

1

Well, well, well how small minded was that. What is the use of having a group at all then if people cannot have different ideas about life and what and how to feed ones cat. Petty. I am sure that if pussy feels like a bit of meat, he/she will gets its own.

Yes and no - you have to realize that many cat owners keep strictly indoor cats these days. (A big bone of contention in the pet community).

Now ask me how mice can get in the house in the deep winter in New England and be found by a house cat? Yup. Learned that last winter. What a surprise!

One of my three knows how to mouse. The other two were taken from their Mom's too young and can't hunt. They were really fascinated though.

@maturin1919 So you don't think pussy is capable then?

@maturin1919 Maybe you are right. I will have to talk to a vet and ask them about this.

1

Quoted by Raven CT below. I do feel terribly for how animals suffer in the process of providing food for humans and that we seem to not value that at all - and we are so distanced from it.

The examples are legion for how animals suffer in the process of providing food for other animals. Do you feel terrible about them? The food chain is the nature of nature. It is the way life is.

You can't teach a lion to eat Tofu. It wouldn't eat it and it would only become sick. and here is from
Gooniesnvrdie replied Jan 28, 2019
In 1955, those were considered true statements.

Why would a cat NEED protein from MEATS? Why would humans NEED protein from meat? Please I want to know, why meat protein is preferred over plant protein. Let's hear it.

I am gobsmacked you even ask the question. Even a casual knowledge of mammalian nutritional physiology sheds complete light on this.

Why do you think all cats and other animals such as killer whales are obligate carnivorous predators. Why do you think there are 600 species of parasitic wasps. Do you think these animals chose to occupy their food chain niche? They eat what they eat because they must being programmed by nature. If they don't they die or become ill. For details, do some research. I'm not going to teach you.

Yes I feel terrible watching animals kill animals. I carry spiders out of the house. Cause one of the humans is phobic.

It's the way I am. It may be nature - it doesn't mean I like it? Or don't wish it were different.

Just the way I am - I see suffering as suffering. You should have seen me catching a kid frying ants with a magnifying glass? lol Little me had words!

That's just me. I'm ok with it.

@Healthydoc, And piss the lion off : )

It was years before I found out that paper wasp keep green horned worms under control.

1

Blocking someone from the group is the wrong way about it. I don't want to debate the ethics of feeding a carnivore like a cat on a vegan diet because I haven't studied the science behind how harmful it would be (although I can draw some conclusions). That said, if we assume that it is harmful, I would still hold that banning the vegan from the group is only going to give him/her a persecution complex, not help them come to a better understanding of how to do things. If you want people to change, let them into a group that can show them a better example. If you ban them, you limit their exposure to intelligent conversation on the subject.

I may have mis-stated. They applied to be in the group.

As some groups on FB require. The moderator checked the profile and saw markers for conflict. So there was more than one aspect to this.

It was this being a determining factor that I found interesting however.

I'll make an addendum to the post.

0

I think it's unfair and dangerous to assume that all creatures must eat the way we do. Animals have evolved the way they did for a REASON -- it's all a part of the ecological balance of the planet. For a vegan to assume that their cat can't eat meat because they don't eat meat -- and though it's a domesticated animal, a cat is a cat -- to put these limits on it is just being cruel -- and that in itself just seems ironic for a vegan. I know someone who's vegan who has six cats, and she's intelligent enough to know that they need to eat certain things... All this being said, if there are alternatives out there, then by all means go that route. But it sounds to me like these things haven't been developed enough, and until there's proof that they are viable, owners shouldn't compromise their pets' health in order to be "ethical."

And that being said, I don't know why they would need to be banned from the group. Unless a discussion on this topic would pull focus or cause too much tension. "Agree to disagree" would have to be the guiding rule.

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