@Allamanda How did the "researchers" go about constructing a sample? What research design techniques did they use? What statistical methods did they use? Are their conclusions statically supported to at least a 99.0 percent level. I don't fully accept any research study until these questions are adequately answered, I do not fully accept any study.

@Allamanda I am a total believer in the value of research. But, it needs to be done right. If it is not done right, it just muddies the waters.

The earth will be wonderful when they are gone.....

@PaulWinquist1945 I wish I hadn't seen that, It has put me right off my breakfast

@Allamanda I have never had the biological imperative and there are many others who feel the same. A lot of children are born through peer pressure or societal norms. That should change but, unfortunately won't. Besides, lots of things were normal in the past but is not normal today. Fertility is a complicated subject yet we can't even seem to start a conversation.

@Allamanda Okay, I have had some time to think about this a little more. My late partner always called me fes fes su (Farsi for slowpoke). Yes, populations are falling but instead of 100 million net per year it is still 86 million (a US every 4 years). A huge number and most of those gains are in developing countries - not just Africa. We have already overextended our ability to provide the resources people need to survive yet our constant charity (like food aid) give those in many developing countries - like Ethiopia a false sense and they continue to grow. (a recent Smithsonian article about that country said the country will double it's population in 20 years). One additional thing that people don't want to hear is that the 'large' number of immigrants from developing countries to developed countries mean the carbon footprint of those people is accelerating. How can we curb our own excesses when we promote others to increase theirs and yet still maintain protection for our natural life support system? We cannot - that is reality.

The thing I was thinking about is who can talk about overpopulation? Those that don't have kids are told they don't know what's it like and those that have more than 2 are told they are being hypocrites (my late partner had 3). That leaves people as I. I only have 1 child and I feel pity for the future for my 2 grandchildren. If people refuse to see what's going on and still have kids they are being ignorant. If they do see what's going on and what the future of their kids will be and still have them; they are being selfish.

Conversations like this really help me put pieces together I hadn't though of before. Thanks.

@Allamanda People a lot smarter than I and who have done a ton of study have estimated for the world to live at US standards we would need 5 planet Earths. We have overextended our resources not just for today but absolutely for future generations. I once heard a scientist say that if everyone had the same standard of living we would each be living in a cardboard box and have one shoe. I have studied and been very active in this field for over 25 years. I am not afraid of facts and evidence no matter how depressing.

Absolutely, a lot is wasted. It is said the planet contains 3 types of people: those living above subsistence (excess of resources) which is about 1/4. Those living at subsistence - just enough no waste, about 1/2 and those below subsistence - those that often live off of the throw away's of others. This group is about 1/4. BTW, the reason people come here is to increase their footprint and they often do so even at the expense of their own health (I have seen studies on this).

As to who can discuss this; we all should and must discuss this. The formula for Impact = population times Activity (A - an often overlooked item) times technology . Technology often only allows us to extract even more resources leaving fewer for future generations. The resources on this planet are finite and ther present environmental situation have clearly shown they are running out.

No, as you said many have no choice (I discovered my late partner was subjected to marital rape in her first marriage. She had 2 kids then 2 abortions and then a third child and then got sterilized). But I see the problem is not about us making these decisions but nature making them for us when we refuse to face reality (nature is red of claw and tooth and we are a part of nature). Everyone has the same desire for an overabundance of resources. It's not just us. We are lucky in living in a place we have access to those resources. All humans are the same in a lot of ways. If we are so concerned about our excesses we need to lower our uses. There is a movement called voluntary simplicity [choosingvoluntarysimplicity.com] To me (and I have learned the hard way) we must question our desire to give due to cognitive dissonances. I have learned and experienced that often makes problems worse. If one makes a problem worse it is immoral. I went down a long and complicated road to learn this. One has to be ready to fully embrace critical thinking. Unfortunately, most are not and so little will and has changed. Thanks for the discussion.

@Allamanda
Glad we agree on some things. Often people are not so open to discussions that make them uncomfortable. I try not to judge and am always open to learning new things.

I also live below a level than most others. I watch my water usage (10-15 gpd), recycle all I can, have a garden, vegetarian, walk/bike and on and on. This place allows one to do so. However, I am in excess compared to a close couple. They have no running water or indoor plumbing and their main kitchen is outside. They heat the house with a wood stove and they put in a lot of work that most of us wouldn't think twice about. They choose to live this way and could easily afford to get more creature comforts. She has even hinted to me that it would be nice to have a real shower in which they didn't need to heat a boiler with wood beforehand - it is also outside in a separate building. They have a water harvesting tank and I am trying to convince them to put a pump/filter system/UV tube so it can go to where they need better water access.