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Morality is not contingent on knowing right from wrong. Belief in a code doesn't change a person's behavior. For example, I have an old friend who is now in a loving relationship with another friend I grew up with. Even though I consciously know I should be thrilled for her, I can't help but to feel jealous. Therefore, knowing this, I can not be friends with her. I find myself questioning why she is so lucky to find such a cool guy who truly appreciates her, while I am never appreciated like that. I know I am more attractive, but that doesn't seem to help me. So, even though I know right from wrong and have a moral compass, this doesn't correct my thoughts or my inner most feelings. So morality must be more dependent on a person's ability to control their behavior and impulses then just being taught what not to think or feel.

friendlycatlady 5 May 3

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13 comments

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1

I agree. To be able to identify and admit to our shallow, immature, irrational, opinions is good. I'm pretty certain that you can move beyond those thoughts. Especially since you are brave enough to face them and even own up to them.

I respect that.

1

The only reasonable morality is based on the concept of minimal violation of the dignity and respect of others. That is a reasonable basis for a moral code. We may know that something is wrong, yet not be able to bring ourselves to deal with that fact. We are all fallible, and our lives are a struggle to minimize our flaws.

Thanks. So, in conclusion, is it accurate to say, impulses and feelings are no indication of morality. The choice of either acting or not, is what defines whether or not a person behaves morally?

@friendlycatlady if your choice gives you significant discomfort, you really know that you should have acted differently.

2

You've got it right. You have no control over how you feel. You feel how you feel, morality doesn't come into it. What you do is indeed what you can control. Behaviors are learned. Good luck on your personal journey, don't give up! You need to get through a lot of no's to get to your yes. 😊

I agree with almost everything you said. But I don't agree that behaviors are always learned. I think, for example that some children behave much more morally than their parents.

1

Jealousy has absolutely nothing to do with morality. If you went over to her house and kicked her ass, killed her dog, or killed her, that would be immoral.

Oh, so what you are saying is that morality is the action or inaction, more than the feeling which lead to it. This is what I am trying to understand. I intended the post as an open debate about whether or not being commanded not to do something actually does anything at all? If certain feelings are natural and intrinsic to the human condition, I think learning impulse control is more effective than the guilt Religions instill.

@friendlycatlady Are you jealous or envious of your friend? There is a difference. Jealousy can become self destructive, envy not so much.

1

I wonder if it is learned morality rather than morality that you have really thought about an internalized. Kind of like when you are learning a language and then you finally start dreaming in the language. You need to really internalize the morality to live by it.

1

You are shining the light of conscious awareness upon your jealousy, and I predict that that jealousy will soon melt away.

You are also demonstrating tremendous courage and honor by being so open and forthcoming.

Congratulations on being a beautiful person.

I like to personalize my posts in order to make them more relatable. The example I have was intended to be one example of something Religions tell you is immoral, but is actually intrinsic. I'm not real actually jealous of this person. It is just sort of a passing flash of jealousy but I thought it was a good example.

3

It sounds like you need to focus on identifying your inner beauty and not dwell so much on your appearance.

I'm 56 years old! Of course I can't dwell on my appearance, which is actually a relief! It was just a true statement, that you would think might matter. Evidently it must be my sparkling personality that seems to turn people off. Honestly, I don't know.

1

I think it is more about working out those feelings, rather than the absence of them! Your moral compass is well and intact. You recognized, what you felt...and not wanting to put words in your mouth...you have had to withdraw, from embarrassment or not wanting to rain on another person’s happiness or both.
I have often felt the same as you stated and then I worked through my jealousy, (which is really an indication of my own need), and realized that love and caring relationships are not in short supply. And, if I want one, it will happen and if not...I will still be a happy person and can be happy for all others who have found wonderful relationships or any other good fortunes. There is value in celebrating in the good fortunes of others (in spite of your own needs and desires). I wish you good fortunes, ahead!

2

That’s a very well argued position.👍

Really? Struck me as being a whole lot of whining and justification for self-indulgent behavior.

@KKGator I agree with regard to the content but there was a recognition of the problem to overcome which is unusual with typical self-obsessed discourse. Of course,it needs to be acted upon which is a different matter entirely!

3

Traditional morality is hard to live up to. The teaching in the gospels made it even harder, commanding us not to even have sin in our hearts. Thankfully, the law is more reasonable and doesn't get into thought crimes. You're very hard on yourself, I think. Life is hard enough without us getting in on the act too.

Exactly. There, you said it! Religions dictate not to have "sin" in our hearts! This, however, is not only impossible, but is also no indication of morality!!!

4

None of that is about "morality".
It's about jealousy and character flaws.
You can't be happy for your friend because you're jealous.
That's not immoral, that a psychological issue.

I suggest that you seek professional help.

"Thou shalt not cover your neighbor's wife" was the Commandment I had in mind, when equating jealousy with morality.

@friendlycatlady It's "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife", and the bible is the LAST place anyone should be looking for morality.
The 10 things god doesn't want anyone to do is just a list made up by men. It has fuckall to do with any kind of morality.

@KKGator I know how to spell covet. Just a typo. And that was exactly my point. Thanks for reaffirming exactly what my post is actually about.

And please explain why you think I need professional help.

@friendlycatlady Just going by what you said.

@KKGator You shouldn't be so quick to make statements like that in less you are qualified to diagnose and they are warranted.

@friendlycatlady You made the statements that led me to the response I had.

You said your jealousy has made you not want to stay friends with her.
You said you didn't understand why she found a great guy and you haven't.
You even said that you believe you are more attractive, and even that hasn't helped you.
You have conflated "morality" and jealousy.
You described issues you have, which would likely benefit from professional help.
I stand by my suggestion, it was warranted.
Good luck to you.

@KKGator I guess by making the post more personal, I opened myself up to criticizium, although you were the only person who interpreted it that way. In my opinion you are rude and frankly, wrong.

@friendlycatlady That's fine, believe whatever you please.
Just because I'm the only person who interpreted it that way, doesn't make me wrong.
It also doesn't make me rude to have expressed my reactions.
Directness is often misinterpreted as rudeness.
Guess that makes us even.

3

Practice behaving in a manner that you can be proud of yourself for . Repetion , will make it easier , until you actually become truly comfortable with it . Won't be easy at first . May never change 100% , but it's important that you like who you are .

I hear ya, but I don't think my behavior is really the issue. I think we have certain tendencies early on, that are neither bad or good, but forecast our future in social aspects. Some people are just more outgoing than others. I was always a loner. I don't think I can change that. But I have learned to, at least APPEAR to be more sociable.

@friendlycatlady and you sound like a loving person...but, keep in mind people who give deeply, need more time alone to recharge...otherwise we are depleted! (In case you are an introvert.)

3

That's sad to think you've lost 2 friends over jealousy. That's such a normal reaction to have but to let it consume you like this is hurting you and your friends. I hope you work through it.

Well, actually, our friendship goes back to our childhood, but we more recently discovered that we had both moved to the same small town as adults. At first I was thrilled, but somehow it fizzled out quickly. At this point, I feel that something else is toxic in our friendship, and I also think that is why most people gravitate towards a romantic relationship over a friendship. I can understand that, but can't help but wonder I can't find the same. She and I had other issues and disagreements. I think it is easier for people to get along with someone of the opposite sex, who maybe doesn't judge or compare themselves to them.

@friendlycatlady friendships can change...especially from our childhood. We sometimes grow in different directions! You keep mentioning things that aren’t agreeable in your relationship...look at both sides and see why it isn’t comfortable...then go from there. Maybe, you see yourself as a good person (possibly better than friend), and can’t reconcile why you cannot find a meaningful match? There is simply no easy formula for relationships, as I can find (and I have studied these things), some that work great for others, would do me in, etc!! Find ways to make yourself happy and if a relationship comes into that picture you will have one...if not you will still be happy anyway! Best of luck, either way!

@friendlycatlady you deserve happiness the same as any one of us...but it, like most things in life must be worked for...give the things that make you feel real to yourself...your priority! Then you will get some of your needs met.

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