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Even agnostics have a belief system. My agnostic friends believe in empirical evidence, theories supported by science and facts from scholarly articles. I would enjoy hearing your evaluation of religion and spirituality! Thank you!!

APhg 3 July 15
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37 comments (26 - 37)

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2

It's called intelligence

bobwjr Level 10 July 16, 2020
2

Epistemology, which is the study of delineating justified beliefs from opinions, is where this discussion seems to be headed.

Nope the poster is a so called teacher insulting Atheists and Agnostics equating us as believers with "belief systems" ....he is full of horseshit and is begging for apologetics not epistemological responses

@Larry68Feminist I try to give people the benefit of the doubt when being asked a question ... perhaps you have more background with @APhg?

@p-nullifidian the believer is bragging about his believer students and insulting us Atheists with his false leading question....fuck him .... if I asked him why he is 99% Atheist rejecting all alleged deity claims except his own, I would be asking the converse question all believers are Atheists except for their alleged true belief....he is the problem in education NOT THE SOLUTION

@Larry68Feminist Although I do not see what you do, like you, I am solution driven, even if I appear unwilling to cast aside sincere knowledge seekers out of hand.

2

I think what you're describing is the scientific method.

2

Religious literalism is a philosophical corruption of the true purpose of religion - to counter certain natural instincts in order to live cooperatively in large groups of strangers. Spirituality is the management of, and maintenance of, relative emotional buoyancy.

skado Level 9 July 15, 2020

@Allamanda
There's always more to a thing than its theoretical center. (and my view of it is only my view of it)

@OwlInASack
I think it's hard to know what's in another person's mind. In any case though, calling something a "corruption" doesn't sound too generous to me.

@OwlInASack
Among the usual human motivations is one we blame-casters love to forget - the human ability to deceive oneself through the sincerest of intentions. The Mormons have a mythology that is, if only by happenstance, quite closely aligned with human archetypal structures. So, just like the JK Rowling stories, they exert a powerful tug on the human imagination. Even, plausibly, on the heartstrings of its originator. In the end, the group that makes the most babies wins. And believe you me, the Mormons are making babies!

@OwlInASack
I'd be open to hearing why you think they're so clear. I studied Mormonism from both inside and outside the church, and I don't know of any reason to suspect Smith was any less sincere than any human who leads other humans. It looks like a scam from the outside, but I can understand how a human could believe it was true, or at least believe it would be good for people if they believed it was true. I'm not aware of any conclusive evidence that he was insincere. Tell me what you know.

@OwlInASack
Of course they have to be considered capable of knowing. And capable of not knowing. The human capacity for deceiving others is exceeded only by its capacity for deceiving itself.

1

I suppose we can agree that belief in Hanuman is illogical. Then, there Is Ghanesha. Maybe we can agree on Siva. Possibly free on Krishna. I could go on all day and we could agree. ....

What are you talking about?

All alleged gawds are bullshit

1

Well yes... Agnostics have beliefs. Denying beliefs is not the point of Agnosticism. It's specifically about belief in an entity. You're trying to distract from the real issue.

I believe there are two fundamental beliefs we scientists have to believe as scientists. These are that nature obeys the rules of logic (making it comprehensible) and the rules of logic hold indefinitely.

All of our scientific knowledge rests on these two beliefs being actively held as true. Otherwise a scientist couldnt function.

Religious beliefs explicitly contradict this by stating an incomprehensible entity makes up the rules, and those rules can changes at the whims of this entity.

1

As an agnostic I disagree. I personally do not have a "belief system!"
Really an 'Ignostic Neo-Deist Pantheist,' I enjoy attacking others' belief systems as a 'technique' employed to pinpoint where precisely I am NOT on the belief/unbelief scale.
That accomplished, I've more or less lost interest in the whole subject.
(Also lost interest in ideology now that I know exactly where I am on that 'scale' as well: communist).
I pretty much figure it'll work out, even if we as a species go extinct. See, we all individually go extinct, for sure, so it doesn't matter

What adjective would you choose to describe yourself?

1

I know we all sometimes define words differently... So, first off, my understanding is the word "agnostic" addresses one's view of knowledge. E.g. can I know for sure whether or not there is a god? Personally, no, I don't think I can know whether a god or gods exist. So, I'm agnostic on the god issue. (Though I just about 100% doubt it).
Now, theism and atheism are terms that describe belief. Do I believe there is a god or any gods? No. I'm an atheist.
Put the two together and I'm an agnostic atheist, a term I see and hear more and more lately.

@Allamanda Other than what I wrote? I thought it was pretty clear. No god belief. Near 100% doubt.
Is there something else you'd like to know? Not sure what it would be is all.

@Allamanda At this time I really don't. I deconverted from a fundamentalist faith around 5 years ago. I'm so in love with discovering the world for what it really is, mainly through science, that I'm not as much interested in the metaphysical.

@Allamanda Turns out, the world is kind of a piece of shit! But there is beauty is the ugliness. Pleasure in the pain. I'd just rather believe the most true things, and the fewest false things as possible, even if delusion would be comforting. At least for now. I was brainwashed and viewed the world through the lens of faith for 35 years. I'm over it. Maybe permanently.

@Allamanda I have a loving, supportive family, but I'm kinda jealous! I think I only managed to eventually escape the "god glasses" because I was born with a skeptical gene and constantly questioned many things.

@Allamanda What's the culture like in the Virgin Islands? Just as bat-shit crazy religious as the Continental US? Good luck holding public office in this country if you don't claim some relgion.

@BAMFHufflepuff spit on Governor Culbert Olsen grave much ? The Atheists who have dodged McCarthyism and defeated religionistic theocrats at the polls include Mayor Bud Clark of Portland Oregon Cecil Bothwell of Asheville City Council ....playing the victim of theocracy is not defeating theocracy... religious voters will re-elect Atheists who do a good job .. . Many Jewish incumbents are secular and not pandering to believers... you have a point Atheist Walter Mondale pretended to have a faith playing the victim of ReaGUN criminal theocracy....
Obama's father was an Atheist and his son dabbled with islam as a teen calling himself Barry Soetero after his step father in Indonesia his mom an anthropologist having sons by Obama in Kenya and a man in California thus 2 Presidential brothers... his xian grandmother put him in Harvard after his Atheist mom died

1

Another theist trolling again. Dude you can have your own beliefs, stop trying to tell us that we have to believe in something. Why are you guys here trying to push your b.s. on us.

0

Religion was invented by the 1st shaman who institutionalized rape of women and brainwashing boys into deadly violence against neighboring tribes the alleged gawds came much later to mirror Generals and Admirals and dictators

0

To me Science is part of a man made system, and a way to say that you have to prove something before it can be real. This part of the game of winning and losing. When you observe something you can begin to understand it, you don't need evidence to prove a thing is a thing.

And Spirituality is something we are told is separate from us. But thats like saying your body is a mechanical object. But we have the flow of life within us, because we are alive.

0

“EVEN agnostics ...?” Oh my!

In my humble opinion, being an atheist or agnostic (in this context) involves an answer or position relative to one, single question: belief in gods. Period.

It may or may not influence or connect to attitudes about science, spirituality, politics, etc. I may like both apples and oranges, but can still tell the difference between the two.

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