@creative51 Spoken like a garden variety Baptist in a hate letter to a Dawkins or the like.

It is clinical, that 'the further a thought system is from reality, the more intolerance and cruelty are required to maintain it'.

Fantasies are terrible things to jeopardize.

@creative51 Why would you think I'd doubt you? Perhaps praying for it would help you.

206,000 deaths is not an insignificant number. Normal flu deaths per year are like 12 to 60k. There are no inflated numbers. Numbers are slightly lower than actual, but it's not a perfect process, the record keeping.

@Flowerwall (Not to you, Flowerwall...) So, is there a difference between parroting Fox propaganda and a Russian troll? Not trying to convince 'believers'... Projection much? We might be at 206K now, but we could easily see a full million before this subsides. If the vaccine arrives as suggested by next summer, 500K minimum. What Trumpists are finding out the hard way is that, even if you do survive, a significant proportion will spend the rest of their lives with debilitating internal injuries. Many of these will impose many trillions is medical costs well into the future. Here's a flash: American Conservatives hate Arabs as much as they hate Muslims.

@racocn8 It's replied to me, but not to me? The internal injury idea is a horrible one. I know the original SARS gave long term respeitory problems, and some people are reporting this is happening with 19. I really hope it is not doing damage to the young on a mass scale. It is a horrible, horrible idea to think of that happening. It's millions of people.

What provoked this comment? "American Conservatives hate Arabs as much as they hate Muslims."

@Flowerwall The last comment you inquired about references Silver1wun's post which seemed like parroted Fox News nonsense, and Silver1wun's profile shows him in Arab attire.

As for the subsequent sequelae to Covid, extracts from the references.

Post-Covid effects: “fever, fatigue and breathlessness, as well as more severe sequelae, including impairment of renal and cardiovascular function, ongoing hypercoagulability, myalgia, depression,… says Benjamin Abramoff, MD, MS. “A wide range of medical issues can persist and impair function and overall quality of life in these patients.” [pennmedicine.org]

The early studies have found decreased lung function that might not be reversible, as well as potentially permanent damage to the heart, kidneys, and liver, along with GI conditions….Some patients experience ongoing shortness of breath, coughing, fatigue, persistent chest pain on exertion, blood clotting (DVTs), poor concentration, cardiovascular complications, gastrointestinal distress, reduced muscle strength and impaired grasping power, dizziness, neurological complications, and/or conditions such as seizures or strokes,… [icd10monitor.com]

@racocn8 I still don't get why someone would say that "American Conservatives hate Arabs as much as they hate Muslims." I don't think generalities like that are useful. I don't think hatred against entire groups of people is a good idea.

@Flowerwall Truth is not always useful. It requires a clear receiver. A lot of people who are light-skinned hope to pass as white and get the benefits of Conservative alignment. Whatever the reason, when white supremacists start purging, anyone who isn't identical to their vision is liable for execution. Sadly, quite a few have sold their souls in hopes of having a place at the table. They'll sell out the society for their own selfishness. That's a big part of Trumpism. and Conservatism. Perhaps you are familiar with the European pogroms of past centuries?

@racocn8 I don't understand what you are saying "when white supremacists start purging". What does that mean? This whole idea of increasing numbers of white supremacists is not real. For instance Charlottesville rally was only attended by 600 people. It is so frequently cited as proof of this notion of increasing white supremacy. This idea feels like a huge lie. You use white supremacist and conservative as interchangeable terms, right? What separates the definition in your mind?

@Flowerwall Cattle are incapable of thinking in ANY ways but group terms and generalities. They are herd creatures and for them, real individuals just don't exist and to whatever extent they are able to catch prehensile glimpses at mavericks, it deeply fightens them and their false senses of security within the herd.

@Flowerwall White supremacists have a different definition from that of Conservative. However, as a practical matter, the two sets are so strongly overlapping as to refer to the same group with only small percent not belonging to both. Other strongly overlapping descriptors are evangelicals, Trump supporters, survivalists, militias, Republicans, and white trash. Such exclusivity points out the naivete of non-whites who try to join that group. Perhaps they imagine themselves as mavericks, but that is an insult to all horses. It is more like the Arabs who supported the Nazis.

@racocn8 I am sure there are one or two issues you can agree with a more conservative viewpoint on? There has to be, but I feel positive you won't admit it. That's fine. We can spend trilliond and then raise taxes and then after our economy has crashed and we see extreme poverty all over the country it'll be time to remember the good old days of prosperity.

I have said before and will say it here, I am a Dem at my core, but cannot support the ideas in the current state it's in. Dems need to take a time out and rethink their platform and tactics. And that's just reality. All the name calling won't change that reality for Dems.

Yes, these are some good numbers from these countries. But how do we apply it now? It's too late for airport screenings to stop it. Maybe there is more to it that keeps numbers at bay. Vitaman D levels? Living spaces? What are the factors?

@Flowerwall

One key thing is for citizens to cooperate and agree each to do their level best to think and behave rationally and smartly. From this premise we could reason a variety of reasonable measures and nuances, as to wearing masks, social distancing, hassle-free low-cost access to testing, etc. As well, there needs to be leadership on these matters from reasonably intelligent well-spoken people in medicine and government.

At this point, here in the US we do not consistently have citizen cooperation and teamwork and smarts, and we do not have consistently thoughtful intelligent leadership in all areas, or at the highest levels. As a result needless extra deaths in the US have taken place so far around 200k people (I view them as mass-killings-by-Pandemic-Malfeasance-by-Trump-and-company), and as a result it is more dangerous to be in some parts of the US than in some other parts of the world, even if those other parts are nominally less wealthy.

I don't know what it is exactly. Do we blame Trump for it all? I read something yesterday this long piece on nationalism, and there are some points that seem to validate your comments, but I am not well versed in the ideology it all. Even if we completely eliminate Trump from the picture, what governors have done a better job? The responsibility falls to them. I don't see any of the states being effective in this regard. So then it's NOT Trump's fault and there aren't all these underlying nefarious political goals. Tell me where it's been managed well in this country. And outside of it as well. Make a list.

@Flowerwall According to the attached graph, that list would be Germany, South Korea, maybe Italy. (Probably China too).

As to the governors, NY, NJ and CA have done as well as they could with limited resources and open travel. NY and CA have sought to enact their own programs of testing, and track and trace where feasible. The Northeast states have also had minimal effect so far, though probably more due to using masks, SD. The inability to limit travel or to enact test/track/trace makes it a near lost-cause.

@Flowerwall CT has controlled things well from the get-go! Cuomo has done a Fabulous job getting things under control, with actual inimical actions from the feds (trump) working against him. I am privileged to be in this relatively safe spot!

@racocn8 Well South Korea still looks to have these number under control. That's impressive because it's been over a much longer period now. And Germany, if I am reading it right, seems to have numbers way down. Just read Germany is most populous nation in Europe. Also, NJ and NY are doing something right. And I think polulation densitywise the two places have to be right up there as highest in nation. These are all good places to more closely examine and the African nations mentioned in the other article.

@AnneWimsey It does appear that NY has brought number down, but Cuomo is in charge of the state that mass tested prisoners, including, highly wealthy and well connected felons while ordinary NY residents were denied tests and some died as a result. I mean while you had an entire nation like Liberia (see article above) that is saddled in deep poverty, some of more extreme in the world, Liberia was able to institute effective policy through screenings and quarantine, keep total numbers under 2k but Cuomo who has access to all manner of funding, staff, medical resouces, etc can't keep infection out of an enclosed jail? C'MON!

@prisons are Far from enclosed...do you think the guards live in? How about volunteers, delivery vans, visitors, etc etc A captive audience is much more likely to spread the virus, like to, oh, I dunno, the guards & others mentioned above.....

But what governors would you say have managed it well? I have only read so much, I don't know. Governors have the ability to bring it down in their own states.

@Flowerwall

Except, interstate travel makes mitigation nearly impossible for governors.

@Flowerwall Cuomo, Lamont, plus the governors of RI, NJ & Mass have joined in. Could have been a complete horror show, just look at NYC early on...they pulled together and are now doing Great, despite the feds/trump actually shorting us on supplies like PPE & ventilators, for shame! Oh,and do not come here unless you want to endure 2-weeks strict quarantine,or up to $2500 fines. And we Will turn you in!

@BlizzardMan Exactly, states can't close their borders, so as long as some states are doing essentially nothing, other states can only do so much. Especially with no national test/trace in place. And we stopped even testing people at the borders, so are a constant source of reinfection. America is a test case of how not to handle a pandemic.

@Druvius in the interests of my health, and the health of my friends, family, neighbors, I have a Deep interest in turning scofflaws in! Hopefully they get hit with the max $2500! I cherish this little pocket of safety i am in!

Yes, I have seen this map. It's very widespread all over the world.

@Flowerwall . . . AND, the map can display the stats in a wide variety of ways.