10 10

Gallup agrees with Pew.
The world is growing more, not less, religious.

page 76

“Trends in most developed rich countries reveal a secularization processes, with less religious practice and a decline in values and beliefs. But the world as a whole has not become less religious. On the contrary, there are now more people with traditional religious views, and they constitute a growing proportion of the world’s population. To account for this, we need to recognize not only that poorer countries have a much higher fertility rate but also that in rich countries population is stagnating, and this process will deepen in the coming years.
In addition, we can observe countries where rates of religiousness are rising along with economic growth. This has a number of possible causes, including feelings of personal and/or existential insecurity caused by the social and structural changes that result from economic growth. These factors can include an increase in unemployment, anxiety about new liberal free market policies that limit the role of the welfare state and the public service, fear of being fired, the growing gap between rich and poor, the growth of crime, and so on.”

page 76


skado 9 July 11

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Marx said it long ago, "Religion is the opiate of the masses", and in this case, esp. so for the poorer masses....

"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people."

@skado I guess I stand corrected on the wording, thanks.

Not intended as a correction, just more of the quote for context. The original was of course in German, and is alternately translated as masses or people.

@skado I see, that makes sense. I like the original quote even better than the one I posted. It makes me think of MLK's quote about riots being the language of the unheard and oppressed....



I find the loss of values statement insulting and inaccurate as values are subjective.


I can't remember when I first read /learned that Islam will be the world's largest organized religion by 2050, but as I delved through the research and reasoning, it makes perfect sense.

I think it was about then that I told myself, "More tolerance, more education about others and their beliefs and make every effort to assimilate."

It's VERY clear to me, I'm going to be in the demographic of non-believers that's a really small demographic. 😉


In rich countries the population is "stagnating?"
It SHOULD be "stagnating" everywhere. Since it's not, people from the poor countries will continue to face hopeless, doomed lives, with their only hope fleeing to rich countries, where they most definitely aren't wanted!


“The values held by religious people are different from those held by secular people…” -Gallup

They then conclude a “decline in values”. (Also Gallup)

Would like to know how they made the leap.

Mvtt Level 7 July 11, 2021

Yes, agreed. Also, professed values are often not consistant with behavior. How many preachers have been publicly caught in sex scandals?
Yesterday I was watching various you tube videos comparing various states and cities for relative pros and cons as retirement destinations. On a lengthy review of Bible Belt buckle Arkansas, it was shocking how pervasive crime and violence are in this deeply religious state.
Similarly, Utah is a standout in her rates of pornography consumption. Completely subjective example of a value, but it seems compulsory religious environment certainly does not eliminate behaviors the religion publicly condemns.

@MikeInBatonRouge Talk is cheap, huh


We face a perfect storm it seems. With several environmental and pollution crisis all coming at the same time, plus global warming bringing many others, possible collapse of the oceanic ecosystem, a widening gap between rich and poor, large numbers of vital resources running out, an mass extinction threatening bio-diversity which is our main cushion, fast growing population, a break down of news media, possible catastrophic failing of global communications as things like satellite and power networks reach their sell by dates, increasing loss of trust in science (our only hope for reasoned judgments ), a decline in democracy, increasing political corruption and now a rise in the more extreme forms religious fundamentalism, and the religions of nationalism and hate, with the inevitable decline in education that goes with those, someone could have a major accident with as yet undiscovered technology and cause a global melt down (oops), and they could all be made worse by a global natural disaster (especially volcanic) which we do not have the tech to predict or manage yet, coming at just the time when we are struggling with everything else. Plus a few other things that I will remember later.

Looks like the new dark ages could be very dark indeed folks.

But on the other hand, only fools think they can predict the future. For example you never know but a really fierce global pandemic could come to our, few surviving, grandchildren's rescue, and cut human population down to sustainable size....... But that may not be fun either.

Looks to me there may not be a fun path out of this mess. I expect there will, sooner or later, be a massive population reduction at minimum.

A good summary of the world's problems, and it looks hopeless.
But sooner or later, hopefully sooner, some or all these factors will dovetail into one another and cause a MAJOR upheaval, which MAY pull us back from the brink before it's too late.
That's our only hope.


That has been my perception, and I have stated so here.


Also, missionaries are sent o poorer countries, because as there is less education they are prime subjects for conversion.


The resurgence of "classical" religions is largely in defiance the religious acceptance of Marxism by "free-thinking" academia. Secularists need to promote individual liberty and responsibility instead of promoting collectivism.

Conservatives need to promote individual liberty and responsibility instead of promoting collectivism.



I love all three.

@skado Agreed, and most of them do. More of the secular leftists need to do the same.

That might be a steep uphill battle. Isn't that sort of like saying secular leftists need to not be leftists?

@skado Negative.
More secular leftists need to reject the regressive, collectivist agenda and embrace true liberalism.

Liberalism is one of those words that gets used for everything. What is “true” liberalism? Is that like a true scotsman?


That’s what I had guessed you were talking about - economic conservatism. That has nothing to do with what liberals or leftists value. It’s just a Petersonian dodge.

If you’re expecting anyone on the left to hop on that train, you have a very long wait ahead of you. If it pleases rightists to have laid claim to the word liberal, they are welcome to it. But what’s in a name? The “true” left is about egalitarianism, and the “true” right is about hierarchy, and no amount of name-swapping will ever change that. Go ahead and support the oligarchs and call yourself a liberal if that works for you, but don’t waste your efforts trying to fool progressive minded people with that ruse. It will never come close to working.

There is nothing "progressive" about collectivism. Despite your strawman assertions, I will continue to promote individual liberty, responsibility, and socially responsible capitalism while opposing corporatism and crony capitalism. BTW "conservatism" is not a pejorative.

Many corporatists and crony capitalists masquerade as "conservatives", while many collectivists, tyrants and power trippers masquerade as "progressives" and "liberals".


It only confirms my own long hold views based on data and observation of world population and religious adherence. It’s a mistake to believe because religious belief is decreasing in the most affluent countries of the West that this pattern is repeated globally. As this article points out…population is also decreasing or at least staying static in those rich developed western countries, whereas in the poorer underdeveloped world, where conservative values and religious belief are still the norm, the population is rising at an unsustainable level. This does not bode well for the future of the planet and it’s economic or environmental sustainability.

And when hard times or catastrophic events hit developed countries, religiosity comes back, even if it had previously faded. I wonder what kind of world we will live in as climate change takes center stage. I expect it to have a distinct fascist flavor.

@skado it won’t be good, of that we can be sure…more nationalistic and fascist I’d agree.

The rest of this century looks like a period I won’t regret having to miss. I can imagine people who have children and grandchildren are worried sick.

@skado Yes…I do sometimes wonder what kind of world my two grandsons are going to be facing later this century.

@skado - Desparate people are much more likely to take desparate actions. When people aren't able to meet basic needs, they become desparate. In combination, they may very well seek justification for their actions and declaring one's self and loved ones as more deserving than other desparate people is one way to accomplish it. Religion has often been used to support the notion of being special or chosen. It contains much about dividing the chosen from the u deserving - the righteous from the unclean. Historically, civilizations will often become more religious when times become difficult (never mind that the Judeo-Christian scriptures are loaded with stories of how God punishes his chosen with hardships to bring them in line with their God). Sadly, I think your observations are on target.

Countries like Germany and Italy have had negative population growth for a couple of decades. The U.s. is nearing the break even point. But, the developed countries are worried about the age gap and unskilled workers and bringing in millions from developing countries. This only increases the total carbon footprints and trying to assimilate so many from so many different countries is very expensive. In Seattle the district had to take funds away from the special ed program to finance foreign language IA's, translation courses and interpreters just to name a few.

@JackPedigo Germany is actually growing (slowly) recently, due to an influx of migration.
Most of these migrants come from religious societies, mostly Islam.
I´m not happy with that, but it cannot be avoided.

I think many in the poor underdeveloped world do you the luxury of planning for the future. They are mostly fighting for the present. The developed world is as usual preaching. I don't think we have to be sad about any of this though. I think life might be a bit more challenging but there will be moments of happiness and joy. It's just a new "normal" is on the horizon.

@Matias It's not a recent development. When I lived there starting in the 70's Turks were doing all the work Germans wouldn't do (sound familiar)? Even back then the Moslem's were terrorizing Christian Turks.
My comment was about migration. In 1989 when the wall started to fall lots of soviet bloc people flooded into W. Germany. The citizens found themselves in a bind. The soccar fields were converted into tent cities and the rules for owning a house changed. The ruler, Helmut Kohl lost his position due to the backlash. The accusation was that the leaders cared more for improving their negative image through repatriating lots of outsiders than improving the living conditions for its citizens. There was and is truth in that. In the US we care more for cheap labor than stability.

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