How did it feel before you were born?
I dread and fear it, but not because I will cease to exist, but because I'm in love with living.
I've died twice, and honestly I don't fear dying. Right before you die you fall into this amazing comfort and you're so comfortable you don't care anymore that you're about to die. In my experience anyway.
@LadyAlyxandrea
I died as well. I didnt find it uncomfortable at all. It was a simple ceasing to exit. I only became aware of my death when they brought me back after more than several minutes and told me that I died. Really, it was not bad.
@Emme I was aware enough to know I was going to die, but I remember thinking to myself "oh well, this isn't so bad". Even with my father saying "breathe Alyxandrea breathe" I thought "no, if I breathe I'll hurt, this is much more pleasant"
The part that scared me was how easily I had let myself drift off and did not want to return. However when my time comes, I'm not scared. That was my idea of heaven. Blissful black nothingness. No pain, no thoughts, nothing
@LadyAlyxandrea
That's EXACTLY it❣? It's not nearly as frightening as people think. Not EVEN close.
Agreed!
I will have to say that at times I share your thoughts. One thing that provided a little solace was a tv spot that Robin Williams did (ironically shortly before he committed suicide - of course it would have been difficult to be shortly after). The tag line at the end was to the effect that life (for the species) is the equivalent of a never ending story and your life is the opportunity to add a verse or chapter to the story. Personally, when I need something to focus on I think that if there is actually any purpose to our existence it is far bigger than the "mere" concept of god encompasses. Any purpose would have to be the same for the entire universe and thus I choose to think that my life is the universes way of experiencing itself. As Jackson Browne said in a song: "the only thing that survives, is the way we live our lives."
Any purpose is self-determined and varies by what each individual decides is important / relevant to them. What you are probably talking about is externally bestowed meaning / purpose which I do not believe exists in any meaningful way. Yes existence has the "purpose" of existing, I suppose you could say, but I think it's more accurate to say that "existence exists". It's what it does, inherently, by definition. Besides, meaning and purpose require agency to define it. If meaning and purpose are externally defined then god is a necessary entity. It is a way in my view to create a faux need for something that doesn't exist and then create an imagined Being to enable it.
Williams was right, we contribute our finite mortal little bit to an effectively infinite immortal story in a sense. Williams was done with his contribution and opted out of having more experiences likely due to his deteriorating health and ability to earn a living and keep himself distracted from his demons. I respect that decision. It was a courageous one.
@mordant what a bunch of babble. It takes far more courage to live through an experience regardless of how discomforting it is than to opt out, Anyone has the right to opt out if they choose, but to call it courage is ludicrous. Understandable, self serving, the road less traveled, okay, but courageous - not even close.
@pilotlight11 As the song says you gotta know when to hold 'em and know when to fold 'em. In most cases suicide is a bad decision. In some it is not. Neither of us really know the details of William's reasons for what he did or the context of his situation enough to definitively judge that, but I lean in his favor.
Robin, you or I get to decide for ourselves whether or not we want to have new experiences, and the time and manner of our death. It is for no one else. I submit that there is such a thing as rational suicide. I have witnessed it personally. It should ideally be professionaly and voluntarily assisted upon request (with appropriate safeguards). It should be respectful of how it effects extended family and other interested parties. But it is ultimately an individual's choice.
That it's most often an irrational decision that's the product of disordered thinking does not mean it's never the better course, for the individual, and quite conceivably even for family.
Also: there's no automatic virtue in suffering. Suffering always diminishes the sufferer (whether they can, or should want to, make lemonade out of lemons is a separate question). To say anything else is to diminish sufferers even more. We don't know how much suffering Williams had already endured in any event.
Remember how things were before you were born? That's how it will be after you pass.
I should have read some comments before posting one.
Yes makes sense but still sucks
@Dreamrider - Funny thing is that for me, it really doesn't suck. We're born. We live. We die. It's the natural order of things.
How do you know your existence will end? I do not mean in the sense of heaven or as a religious argument. What I mean is having not died how do you know what happens? If you want to believe as apparently many Atheists do that death is the end of all that is your right but it is a belief in that their is no proof. Absence of knowledge is not proof. The way I see it why fear the unknowable? I fear the pain possible in the manner of my death. I fear the pain it may cause others being one who abhors causing others pain.
If you don’t believe in religion that talks of an afterlife, why would you think you continue to exist after death? If you don’t believe in God, how exactly are you going to continue to exist after death?
@Dreamrider I do not know either way. I do not think anyone does logically as no one comes back (too my knowledge). But too me the unproven goes both ways. My father in law believes in reincarnation but does not follow any religion attend church etc. Why is religion a prerequisite it seems for so many people on these forums for belief? For faith in the unknown? I do not wish to convert anyone as my beliefs need no one else's permission or support. I do not need a pope or a priest or even a god to define the feeling I get when standing in a field in a spring rain and the dragonfly lands on my outstretched palm. That too me is spirituality. I just like discussing nearly anything. I am open to possibilities. Too me there is a possibility in the unknown. The law of conservation of matter and energy states nothing ever truly ends it just changes form. So what if after death you simply change form perhaps consciousness persists perhaps not. I am not saying there is or there is not with certainty. But what proof except the absence of such do any of these people claiming their is nothing after death have? And what superiority is inherent in believing (without proof) their is nothing after death as opposed to lacking the same in your belief that there is? Now if I was applying my belief as truth which I am not, again I do not know, then I would be in error.
What are you afraid of? I don't fear death because I know that no matter what, I have lived a good life. I sometimes wish I could live forever just to see how it all turns out. Then sometimes I get afraid that I will see how it all turns out in the 80 to 100 years I do get. But my death in and of itself holds no power to make me sfraid.
Here is a thought exercise if they developed which they may in the future a technology which would allow for clinical or cybernetic immortality would you take that route if offered? Say for example if they could transfer your consciousness into a computer/robot body which given access to replacement parts could last indefinitely? I am curious. I would simply as a way to extend my life and observe the human animals descent into death or emergence into something better or maybe just a sort of half life were technology keeps us just outside the edge of destruction. Or maybe into the body of a deep space probe to explore the universe for a few hundred years and then die some where far far away.
Excellent question!!! I believe we all fear the unknown. If most theist would be honest even though they claim to have "Hell Insurance" ...they still don't want to die. Even those guys will have no existence after death..."ashes to ashes, dust to dust"
My best advise to myself is to enjoy life as much as possible and consider death as a sort of time to go to sleep after a great day. ?
I agree wholeheartedly. Besides, if they really truly believe in heaven why the hell (pun intended) would they want to live on earth?
I thought a lot about this when i was younger because my mom passed away. I was still a believer back then and missed my mom more than anything. I constantly thought about walking into traffic, cause it's not really suicide if someone else kills me... Thanks religion, you really fucked up 8yo me.
Congratulations on overcoming Pascal's Wager! I will only say this: was the nothingness before you were born so terrible? Then neither will be the emptiness that comes after. It's really only the transition that makes me nervous, but there's not a lot to be done about it.
It IS nothingness. It's ok, really.
The idea that you weren’t afraid of death because of what awaited was based on nothing whatsoever and sold to you by snake oil salesmen.
Who wants to live like that?
Instead it’s the very acceptance of this fact, that allows me realize how special this happy accident is, not only of life, but the consciousness and security we have that allows us to ponder such things, aspiring to not waste it and live it to the fullest, before our molecules and atoms are recycled into the earth... and later... through the cosmos.
Just my thoughts. Hope it helps
Very nice indeed❣??
"It depends".
I find that people who dread their mortality as atheists probably dreaded it as theists. They just had comforting lies to paper it over with, and don't now. So the problem isn't caused by deconversion, it's simply exposed by it.
Personaly I never dreaded it when I was a believer and if anything my unbelief made me even more accepting of my mortality.
You might want to read philosopher Ernst Becker, particularly Denial of Death, to get a little perspective on this. It's a particularly powerful book given that it was written while he was dying. The short version: the whole story of human history is the story of people's immortality projects, their attempts to deny, cheat, and circumvent death.
The only general advice I can convey is to consistently deal in reality (always a work in progress; our brain really doesn't like reality). Remind yourself that mortality is not just the fact of death, it is a (for lack of a better term) "scope" for your existence. A lot of existential angst is tangled up in the desire to accomplish something -- to do rather than to be. To perform. To excel. To triumph. To demostrate proficiency and to acheive success.
All of these strivings are rather poorly defined and we're always failing at them, and all of them are designed, not to do good, so much as to make sure we leave an impression. That we will be remembered even after we are gone.
I find it liberating to realize that none of that is necessary, that I can inhabit the present moment, leave as little as possible unsaid to my loved ones, be as kind as possible, and try to ease other's way in life -- and it is sufficient, even if not as acknowledged or appreciated as it "should" be. Just do my bit ... don't worry about being lauded now or later for it, don't worry about how indispensible I imagine myself to be. The dread of death is in large part (for me anyway) an ego inflation -- the notion that I'm more important than I actually am. When I'm less important, my sense of accomplishment and adequacy increases. Things become "doable" if you will.
Just my $0.02 plus inflation for what it's worth. You're on the right track; just keep walking into the light of knowledge -- self knowledge, knowledge of reality -- embrace it in all its beauty and absurdity and fragility and impermanence. In time, you'll find peace,
Well said! I'll grant you a whole dime for that!
I'm puzzled how anyone can be that sure about anything. I certainly am not!
Anyway, Shakespeare's Hamlet of course reversed the dread:
To be, or not to be: that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them? To die: to sleep;
No more; and by a sleep to say we end
The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to, 'tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wish'd. To die, to sleep;
To sleep: perchance to dream: ay, there's the rub;
For in that sleep of death what dreams may come
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us pause: there's the respect
That makes calamity of so long life;
For who would bear the whips and scorns of time,
The oppressor's wrong, the proud man's contumely,
The pangs of despised love, the law's delay,
The insolence of office and the spurns
That patient merit of the unworthy takes,
When he himself might his quietus make
With a bare bodkin? who would fardels bear,
To grunt and sweat under a weary life,
But that the dread of something after death,
The undiscover'd country from whose bourn
No traveller returns, puzzles the will
And makes us rather bear those ills we have
Than fly to others that we know not of?
Thus conscience does make cowards of us all;
And thus the native hue of resolution
Is sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought,
And enterprises of great pith and moment
With this regard their currents turn awry,
And lose the name of action.
One of the best soliloquies!
Dread and fear of dying are good thing when they make one appreciate the life one has right now and inform choices one makes to stay healthy and live well for a long time. Attention on now, not a future fantasy is the gift you are giving yourself. Celebrate!
Celebrate, indeed!
There is no point in dreading the inevitable. No one gets out alive. We all know, one day, we are going to die. Knowing that, make every day count. Do what you love. Cut toxic people out of your life, family be damned. Work on being the best at something. Take care of yourself, be smart, sensible, have a cookie. Learn something new, every day. Sing, out loud, every where. I have never stood at a coffin, looking at the deceased & heard, "they could have vacuumed more." Enjoy the day, plan for the future, kiss toads, tell grating people to feck off in no uncertain terms and make damn sure the Grim Reaper has to run to catch you.
Make that sucker work!
I think fearing death is a natural thing. It’s evolutionary. We were ‘created’ to survive, at least for a while. But it’s also natural to die. I think Western thought has kind of taken us away from that awareness. In Western thought we’re taught that death is the worst thing that can happen to us, aging is almost death, and ‘living’ is based on material gain.
Fear is part of the human experience, and fear of death as well. And the idea that our existence just stops is a bit disturbing (and comforting at the same time). It’s something that’s going to happen and there’s absolutely no way to avoid it—which may help us make peace with it. But I don’t think we ever stop fearing it.
Atheistic Taoists hold we should treat everything we are given with delight and when it is gone give it no more thought. I say we should look upon growing older as an opportunity to love, cherish and identify with those things that will continue once your own heart stops beating. ?
Look at it this way.
Everything that lives will die, there is nothing after that no afterlife.
It is no different for believers, they will still die, they will not have another life after this.
So accept that you have been dying since the day you were born, your now is more important than you past or future because they do not exist. They have existed or will exist, but for now they don't.
Your death is part of your life as much as your birth was, they are like book ends.
Your life is the books and pages of books in between.
To quote Don Maclean,
the book of life is brief,
and once a page is read,
all but love is dead.
Life is a journey,
except you don't finish this journey and look back on it,
you end when the journey ends.
Nothing will or can change that.
Accept what life is,
accept the reality of it because you can't change it.
Accept it and enjoy it,
savour it, relish it,
LIVE it.
I have spent time with a lot of people even older than I am who are quite happy to shuffle off,
as you get older
life is less fun
I am noticing it myself,
I cannot do as much as I could and I still have 35 years and 23 days to go as of today.
When that is gone I think I will be content to shuffle off.
If you are around, the party starts 16th February 2053 and goes for 3 months.
When you fully accept your mortality, it is actually quite easy.
I worked as a fisherman for many years, I think once you have come close or pushed to the edge you learn to accept your mortality a bit better, I doubt many of us want to die and it's something we must all prepare our minds to work through..Try Skydiving or bungee jumping .. certainly give you the fear and once you experience that it should be easier..If all you do is sit and wonder that's all you'll ever do..confront it and smile at it then say see ya later..
I think that's all up to you my friend..However a fear of death isn't something to be ashamed of and there's probably not much to do about it anyways..I don't think about it often but the prospect is a bit unnerving for me..The trick isn't to not be afraid of death..The trick is now to let it ruin your day.
Know that nothing has changed, and strive to be proud and enjoy your time here. also, organically, we never die, just change form. Now you can appreciate all beauty unfiltered and know that you are good. Be your own judge, live & let live, lift others up and protect kindness. Be a hero
I find it it be a huge relief to know that it will all end one day. When you are struggling but you know that if it going to be finite...WHEW! Suppose you believe in an afterlife (any of them)...you would have to wade through shit forever! You don't have to worry about eternal damnation or spend eternity stuck with those turds you didn't like here on earth. It is a win-win. You are. You will forever have been. That is pretty amazing. So just enjoy as much as you can of your time here and know that everything miserable will end so try not to get too upset by it. If that won't do it for you then know that there will come a day that you hurt so bad that you won't mind it ending - not trying to be obnoxious. I see elderly people all the time that are ready to go whenever it happens because the body starts giving out. They look back on their lives and appreciate the people that were a part of it and are ready to have it end.