I found this article from The Guardian to be very disturbing, but something we all should think about, even as we try to never forget the lessons of the holocaust. We in the United States had a sort of a holocaust of our own: The Guardian: The sadism of white men: why America must atone for its lynchings. [google.com]
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Feel free to reply to any comment by clicking the "Reply" button.I must say I haven't read the article yet, but some replies made me write this personal opinion:
- Isn’t America, that is filled with 50 states that in some ways are united, still a country that can’t get rid of its slavery past? Isn’t there still slavery if people have to work for a “salary” of which they can’t even support their family? Where both parents have to work that way and have no money for child care? That these jobs pay so little that they can’t afford to look for a better payed job? That most of these low payed jobs are physical labor? That indeed it’s not just for black people (although I have the impression that that most of them are). Labor is the replacement for slavery, but most of the countries have given it a social face with many more vacation days, a better or even good health system, etc., etc. America is as before, divided in three classes, the rich, the middle class and the lower classes. The formal slavery is gone, but it is still hidden in plain sight.
Well, maybe this is not completely backed by scientific facts, but as someone coming from Europa (which is not ideal either), this is my impression and that impression is confirmed every day with the things that I see around me.
Gert
Level 7
Apr 30, 2018
0
Hi My name is Janet Mary and I am new to this website. I agree with your post. I am an agnostic and I believe in equal rights for all people.
janetmary
Level 1
Apr 27, 2018
2
Janet, thank you for your comment, and welcome to the website. As you can see from the total commentary below, not everyone here agrees on everything. And, while I'm gratified you (as I'm sure ultimately everyone here does) agree on the question of equality. My intent on posting was not to seek agreement, or arguments, but to provide another perspective on how we got to where we are today in America in terms of the overall treatment of African Americans. It seems some people have gotten offended at this viewpoint.
Here is the heart of this article. If you disagree, or do not want to acknowledge the gist of what the museums founder has set forth in his construction of this memorial, that's up to you.
"Stevenson’s conviction is that slavery didn’t end in 1865, it evolved into lynching, then segregation and now into a modern dystopia where 2.3 million Americans are incarcerated and one in three black males born in America can expect at some point to go to prison.
He draws a single unbroken thread uniting all these manifestations of racial dominance: “The idea that black people are not the same as white people, they aren’t fully human or evolved, and are presumed dangerous and guilty. That’s why American society today is so non-responsive to shootings of unarmed black people, to disproportionate expulsion rates of black kids, to putting handcuffs on four- or five-year-old black girls – we’ve been acculturated to not valuing the victimisation of black people.”
Condor5
Level 8
Apr 27, 2018
1
A lot of people like to look at slavery, lynching, Jim Crow, etc... as things of the past, to be remembered dismally and then never spoken of again. The reason we never had -and likely never will have- a “post racial society,” the reason white supremecists have been reemboldened to brush up on their old wood shop skills with their ridiculous shields and buy up all the tiki torches at Hobby Lobby (that one’s particularly cute to me) is because of the people who would love nothing more than to “leave the past in the past,” not realizing or caring to admit that the consequences of those events and indeed the policies that predicated them were conveniently NOT left in the past. You may not have robbed the bank, but if you’re eating off the stolen money, that makes you complicit.
Unless you want to argue that minorities in this country have worse outcomes due to their own natural inferiority...
ghettophilosopher
Level 7
Apr 27, 2018
3
Exactly.
Thank you for providing the education.
I found the article disturbing, yes terrible horrific things happened back then and the author wants white America to pay now. It ignores several issues, one, back in Africa it was their fellow Africans rounding up their own race to sell into slavery and slavery is still practiced on the continent of Africa to this day. Two, there is not a single race on this Earth that has not been enslaved at one point or another. The word slave comes from Slavic, a race of people who descended from Indo- European blood, (thats right, white folk are in there) Another thing the writer misses is that only a very small percentage of people in the US owned slaves and some of those slave owners were themselves black. Yet another point is that hundreds of thousands of white men died to end slavery and free black people from their servitude. Entire families lost every adult male and saw their lives disrupted, white people in the North truly sacrificed on behalf of their black brothers and sisters and THIS seems to have been forgotten by some intent on punishing the descendants of these brave souls for what others long gone did. Lynching is horrific, killing someone for no other reason than the color of their skin was and is totally wrong, but so is this attitude that all of white America is responsible and not acknowledging what White people did and continue to do for the fight for equality. I myself have been accosted by black people for no other reason than I am white. Hate begets hate and when we stop blaming and hating one another and instead choose to work together we will see far more progress than we see now with all this race bating. Black kids need real heros like George Washington Carver, a brilliant scientist who attended college right here in Iowa and was accepted and applauded by his fellow white classmates and professors or a hero of mine ( yes white folks can and do have black heros!) Neil DeGrasse Tyson, one of the most brilliant astro-physicists alive today. I see many black kids are taught to blame white people for all their woes instead of realizing they need to pay attention in school and get online and study, apply themselves academically and get an education. In fact all kids regardless of race need to do this as we are falling behind the world. While we should never forget our history to blame people who were born long after that fact and do not agree that what happened was ever right is going to divide us along racial lines and create more animosity instead of a consensus that we need to work together and educate people to end the bigotry which cuts both ways these days.
misstuffy
Level 7
Apr 27, 2018
0
Where was it mentioned in the article, or elsewhere in this posting, that descendants of Union soldiers should be punished? And, does the fact that some white people fought against slavery, and mainly for preservation of the Union, constitute sufficient recompense for a legacy of oppression and systemic racism that continues today? Does the fact of Africans in their own country having been involved in the slave trade mean it's somehow more tolerable when others do it?
@Condor5 Not at all, NO where do I condone slavery but I do think that the black community needs to understand that their own people helped put them in that situation. Have you ignored the call from the black community demanding reparations from ALL whites while ignoring the sacrifice made by whites? IF they want to demand reparations from descendants because of what a small number of ancestors did, and not every ones ancestors mind you, then they must also acknowledge the price paid the ancestors who died to free them.
@misstuffy To be clear, Union soldiers DID NOT fight to free slaves. That’s a revisionist narrative, barely any different than Southerners who cling to the Stars and Bars and their Confederate monuments arguing that it’s about culture.
No one picked up a rifle and said “Yeah! Let’s go give black people their basic human rights!” No one told their meemaw “I don’t wanna go to war MeeMaw, but someone’s gotta do something for those poor black folk down there.”
Union soldiers fought to put down a rebellion. The Union waged war to terminate a secession. The North had no problem with slavery other than the political and economic advantage that it gave to the Southern states. Let’s not forget the 3/5ths compromise or the Mason/Dixon line. The reason Lincoln freed the slaves as he did wasn’t because it was the right thing to do; it was shrewd strategy designed to criminalize the South's political and economic advantage, entice slaves, runaways, and freed men to pick up arms for the Union, and thereby hamstring a devastating rebellion before the entire nation collapsed.
And all I’ll say to the “they did it too” argument is that our parents didn’t tolerate it when we were kids...
@misstuffy And finally, reparations (which is moot anyway because it’s a nonsequitur and EVERYBODY knows it) is demanded from descendants because a) the descendants are the ones that are here b) the descendants are the ones who continue to reap the benefits and c) the descendants are the ones that allow the outgrowths of those policies to continue, either through tolerance or complicity (a distinction with barely a difference).
@misstuffy, "Have you ignored the call from the black community demanding reparations from ALL whites while ignoring the sacrifice made by whites?"
Which segment of the "black community" are you referring to? The entire African American population? The "Black Lives Matter" segment? The followers of Farrakhan? Who, precisely are you referring to?
@ghettophilosopher you are both right and wrong. Yes they were putting down a rebellion but lets face it, many joined to help win freedom for the slaves as well. Don't kid yourself into believing that didn't happen. We had the underground railroad that came through the area I grew up. Whatever the initial motives were, the end result was to free the slaves and an awful lot of good people died doing so and too many people want to over look this while demanding reparation and placing blame on an entire race.
Re your 1st reply; It is true that slavery existed before and after America and that Africans sold the slaves to the whites. However this must be put into contest. Slavery is in the bible but it is there as a punishment for theft or debt. Europeans took what was a cottage industry and made a global trade out of it. What horrifies us most about the holocaust., is not just the genocide (there has been genocide before and since, some even larger). It was the industrial efficiency of it. The same goes for the America`s. Some estimates put the figures at 20 million Africans were taken. Now most of them would not have been to the USA but lots were. My city was at the hub of this trade and although the UK banned it in 1830 (a generation before the land of the free), the money generated by this was around to fuel the industrial revolution that I still enjoy the benefits of.
The USA has a class system based largely upon race. A UK interviewer asked Mohamed Ali what it was like being a 2nd class citizen? Ali replied "Oh what I would have given to be 2nd class. At the top you have white protestants,then white catholics, then jews then chinese, by the time you get down to black men your about 16th." It is vary easy to say "well do better at school and raise yourself up" but if the odds are stacked against you then it will only be a small percentage that will rise. The war on drugs is also a form of Jim Crow and has been likened to a "slow holocaust" [theguardian.com]
Lynching been happening since the cave ages, in all society in the world and still happens in Democratic societies. The farther away from a seat of justice, the more likely to happen. Some deserving (like rapist of a girl, and captured by her relatives) to the none deserving that only crime may be (color of his skin). There are a lot of crimes against humanity in our closets.
GipsyOfNewSpain
Level 9
Apr 26, 2018
1
I agree, I also agree we need to educate people so this does not happen again. It should never have happened to begin with. Luckily most of these people who thought this was OK and even warranted have died off or are dying off of old age. That doesn't mean there is not a younger group out there preaching the hate, the white supremacists are a dangerous group that promote hate based on race and religion. We all need to take care that their numbers fall.
@misstuffy Yes, they live scared because their ancestors gig is up.
Lynchings make me ill. Hate and mistrust of someone with brown or black skin. Now a memorial.
sassygirl3869
Level 9
Apr 26, 2018
1
The memorial is an incredible work. It needs to be there. People need to be educated and things like these lynchings shown for what they are, for how wrong they are.
I absolutely agree. I fantasize about a time when The United States enters an age of reconciliation.
elaw
Level 4
Apr 26, 2018
3
Our history is tainted with so many examples of these atrocities. Please do not forget our indigenous people who became Native Americans when our country was born. We slaughtered them because we wanted what was theirs.
AmelieMatisse
Level 8
Apr 26, 2018
5
There are also the Chinese that built our railroads, they were treated horribly.
I've never lynched anyone. Neither has my white male father, fiance, or son. What do we, as not racist people, have to atone for? Do I hate what happened in the past? Yes. Do I hate what happened to this woman? Yes. Do I hold any responsibility for any of those actions? No. Should I feel shame for them? No. I am not a white supremacist, I am not a racist, I just don't feel shame for other people's actions. Stop being racist in blaming an entire race of people on a small sections problems. It's not all white men who did this. It was 2 white men in a truck. Racism is racism even when it's used against white people. This it's okay to be racist against white people crap really needs to stop.
MamaMOB
Level 5
Apr 26, 2018
5
Seriously, that is all you got out of that article?
You literally cannot be racist against white people. We have all the power. Bias is different than racism.
As long as systemic racism exists, you need to take responsibility for the actions of white people, both past and present.
It's not "a small section of problems". It is a day to day part of the lives of almost every person of color. Every. Damn. Day.
Until you recognize that, and start working to fix it, you are part of the problem.
You are missing the point completely.
@DanceGoat Thank you for so eloquently stating what I couldn't put into words.
@MamaMOB @TheInterlooper I agree with both of you.
How about those with opposing or different views explain why you have that stance about her comments. Perhaps you have had differing experiences than she has. You don't have to just attack because her view is divergent from yours, explain why you think your version is correct. I'm not asking you defend your position, tell us why you see it that way.
I'm attempting to stop an event like what happened with another thread about cannabis.
Please everyone, just take a breath.
@MacTavish I agree whole heartedly. Anyone who doesn't buy in right away or sees another angle here is told they just don't get it. It's as though we're all supposed to check with the OP before we can make any statements outside their opinion stance or viewpoint. If he's just waiting to pounce on anyone who oposes his viewpoint, why bother with the post in the first place? If everyone is supposed to just go to sleep and accept his viewpoint, what are we all doing here? I know I will be on the look out for this person's bait in the future.
@itsallgoodman it's not bait, and I couldn't care less if you agree with the article, or not. But when you try to present it as being something it isn't, I will answer you the way I did, as in the thread you deleted. Perhaps you don't like it because your home state was mentioned, I don't know. If you don't like my posts, then block me. I neither have the time nor inclination to argue with people who can't accept truth.
@itsallgoodman My post was inclusive of everyone, not just her or you, all.
@Condor5 I understood their point. I chose to ignore it for what they ignored themselves. I understand what happened to this woman was wrong and it was racist. I understand that history is filled with racist white people. I also understand that not all white people are racist. And the more and more you keep calling an entire group racist the more and more they'll become racist. It shouldn't okay to be racist against white people. And yes this article makes it clear it is okay to be racist against white people. Because the author and the woman blames all white people for the actions of two men. She was reminded of lynchings cuz some dudes followed her in a car? Why? They didn't even get out of the vehicle. And what does that have to do with anyone who's not those two guys? It doesn't. White people don't have anything to atone for. Racist people have something to atone for. Whether they be white, black, or Hispanic. Just like atheists and agnostics white people aren't a group. They're just people who share the same color skin.
@TheInterlooper it's about who has the power.
Racism and bias are not the same thing.
@DanceGoat wrong.
rac·ism
ˈrāˌsizəm/Submit
noun
prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.
Power is not once mentioned in the definition of the word racism. You do not have to have power to be racist. You have to be racist to be racist.
@DanceGoat please tell me the amount of power that these two white men in a truck had. Because they were just two random dudes in a truck. They had no more power than the black woman in a car did. Except for the fact that there was two of them. But they never got out of the car so they couldn't have done anything to her so why was she assuming they were going to Lynch her? Seems like she's the one with power since we're all talking about her like she's a victim when nothing happened to her.
@DanceGoat I'm not defending this I'm defending white people as a whole. When two white guys go out and do something stupid the entire white race is expected to take the blame because of things that happened in the past. I'm white, I am not either one of these two guys, I am not any of the people who enslaved anyone or was racist towards anyone ever. I take no responsibility for these people's actions nor do I take any of the shame. I am not racist and I am sick and tired of people saying that all white people are racist simply because we're white. I stated repeatedly what these guys did is wrong. The author and the woman threw the entire white race under the bus cuz two people were assholes. That's more racist than anything those 2 men did.
Also, has anyone talked to either of those two guys? Do we know that it was racism? Or just them being an asshole? Or sexism because she was a woman. Or maybe it was heightism cuz maybe they were taller than her. Here's the thing we don't know why these two assholes did what they did. Yes we can assume racism because of the Confederate flag. Hell I assume racism because of the Confederate flag. But since we only know half of the story we don't honestly know. Without all of the information we're making assumptions. And telling the entire white race to atone for things 99% of us have never done and will never do. That's textbook racism.
I just posted an article I read about mass graves being recently discovered. They say over 800,000 people died from genocide some 24 years ago. We forget the atrocities of humanity and are doomed to repeat them.
helionoftroy
Level 7
Apr 26, 2018
3
I hate people sometimes.
Genocide only found its name when faced with efficiency.
It hasn't stopped, and nearly every country has participated.
It's a human problem we haven't evolved past yet.
For the US it's the only heritage we have.
Slappy_Longarms
Level 7
Apr 26, 2018
2
The Guardian should do a series on all the Irish and Bengalis the UK starved to death.
doug6352
Level 7
Apr 26, 2018
2
I've heard about the Irish oppression, not the Bengali's. What era was that?
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